The conflict over Proposition 8 has turned California into a central battlefield in America's on-going culture wars. In this story we visit the frontlines of the conflict, and explore how each side is using moral arguments, records amounts of cash, and hardball politics to make sure it's idea of what marriage should be prevails.
RELATED RESOURCES:
No On Prop 8
Yes on 8
California Secretary of State
The Williams Institute
WEB ORIGINAL:
Beyond Prop 8 - By Web Team - Members of the African American LGBT community in Los Angeles share their thoughts on Proposition 8.
FROM THE BLOG:
A Blog on My Marriage - By Rabbi Denise L. Eger - I did it. After 19 years in relationship, my spouse, Karen and I got married Saturday night.
A Republican Against Prop 8 - By Web Team - We sat down to talk to Steve Soboroff, real estate developer and 2001 Republican candidate for mayor of Los Angeles, about his opposition to Proposition 8.
Yes Virginia, There is a SoCal Conservative Internet - By SoCal Connected Staff - The blogosphere is full of local conservatives and libertarians weighing in on Proposition 8.
CREDITS:
Produced by: Saul Gonzalez;
Edited by: Michael Bloecher
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Let us celebrate the joyous beauty and special grace of love. In the name of Denise Eger and her sanctioned family, may we all be blessed with a resounding "NO" vote on this narrow-minded proposition!
I noted that your narrator mistakenly or on purpose identified The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints as Church of Latter-Day Saints.
Homosexuality/lesbianism is not a condition one is born with. There is no gene that determines abnormal sexual behavior. The "life style" is nothing more than a thumbing of the nose at parents, family and society. The homosexual/lesbian population is not steady, they enter and leave the lifestyle. Many leave the lifestyle, get married, have children and carryout normal relationships. I see no reason why society must accomodate this sort of game for adults. It's time for them to get over whatever slight they believe they have suffered from parents or society and grow up.
Hey Tom, just so I get this straight (get it).... what condition are we born with?
Dear Calistar, re:…what condition are we born with?
We were born with appetites which, when allowed to be unrestrained (instant gratification) lead to lust (a strong desire for something that does not belong to us,) which, when acted upon, results in a distortion of right and wrong--thereby behavior linked to a host of adverse consequences (that in turn robs us of the very best God has for us).
History records for us our common brother’s and sister’s faults: "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (taste), and that is was pleasant to the eyes (sight), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (intellect/ego--a desire to know all things—and be like God,) she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat it, and gave it also to her husband with her, and he did eat it."
"At that moment their eyes were opened and they suddenly felt shame at their nakedness. …They hid from the Lord God …"
Before this temptation, (laid out before them by Satan,) was conceived (by acting on the temptation,)
"God created human beings in His own image… male and female He created them….Then…said, Be fruitful and multiply. Fill the earth and govern it…..I have given you every seed-bearing plant throughout the earth and all the fruit trees for your food." "The Lord God placed the man in the Garden of Eden to tend and watch over it. …You may freely eat of the fruit of every tree in the garden—except (one)…"
"It is not good for the man to be alone," the Lord God said, "I will make a helper who is just and right for him." ‘So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep. While the man slept, the Lord God took out one of the man’s ribs and closed up the opening. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib, and he brought her to the man.’ The man said, ‘This is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. I will call her woman, because she was taken from man.’ ‘This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.’ ‘Now the man and his wife were both naked, but they felt no shame." Genesis 1:27-28, 2:15-24
Notice, there was no shame until lust was conceived and acted on. Then there became shame--after giving into the temptation of lust (the strong desire for something that isn't ours.) Temptation was not the problem; giving into it was.
"A man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife and the two are united into one This is a great mystery, but it is an illustration of the way Christ and the church are one. So I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband." Ephesians 5:31-33
"’Some Pharisees came and tried to trap Jesus with this question. ‘Should a man be allowed to divorce his wife for just any reason?’ ‘Haven’t you read the scriptures?" Jesus replied. ‘They record that from the beginning God made them male and female.’ And He said, ‘This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and two are united into one.’ Since they are no longer two but one, let no one split apart what God has joined together." Matthew 19:4-6
Marriage is a God ordained institution, bound together through God’s Spirit, involving a man and a women. It is through spiritual connection and physical intercourse that man and woman become one. There is no other way to become one. Two men cannot become one nor can two women become one.
"’Are we not children of the same father? Are we not all created by the same God? Then why do we betray each other . . .’ You cry out, ‘Why doesn’t the Lord accept my worship?’ I’ll tell you why! Because the Lord witnessed the vows you and your wife made when you were young. But you have been unfaithful to her, though she remained your faithful partner, the wife of your marriage vows.’ ‘didn’t the Lord make you one with your wife? In body and spirit you are His. And what does He want? Godly children from your union. So guard your heart; remain loyal to the wife of your youth.’ ‘For I hate divorce!’ says the Lord of Heaven … ‘… guard your heart; do not be unfaithful to your wife.’" Malachi :1, 14-16
A union between only a man and a woman can (or has the potential to) bear children.
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind." "Do not practice homosexuality having sex with another man as with a woman . . ." Leviticus 18:22
"’…people suppress the truth…They know the truth about God because He has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created. People have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made they can clearly see His invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuess for not knowing God.’…they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became confused….. Instead of worshipping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshipped idols… They traded the truth about God for a lie (evolution, new age etc.) So they worshipped and served the things God created instead of the Creator Himself, who is worthy of eternal praise!’" Romans 1:18-25
"’That is why God left them to their own ways. Even the women turned against the natural way..., instead they indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty . . . Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, …He left them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done."’ Romans 1:26-27
We need God's help to reign in these varoacious appetites. But they must be reigned in, for the health of our nation.
"For it is God working in you, to have the will and the power to perform those things pleasing in His sight." Philippians 2:13
Yes to Prop 8
So, I am a straight woman. I cannot have children because I've had cancer. Does that mean I shouldn't be married?
Love knows no gender. Believe in your Bible, but we do not base this nation's laws on the Bible. Keep it out of our laws. How sad, and how hateful. You can sit and quote the Bible until the cows come home. This is the UNITED STATES, NOT Iraq! NO THEOCRACY to amend the State's Constitution. May the people of California show the rest of the world that they do not judge or believe in discriminating who can and should love each other.
May the hatred in the hearts of those for Prop 8 be turned into something else.
10 reasons why gay marriage should be illegal
1) Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.
2) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that
hanging around tall people will make you tall.
3) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.
4) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at
all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.
5) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Brittany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.
6) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.
7) Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
8) Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.
9) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at
home.
That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to
raise children.
10) Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never
adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans
[So, I am a straight woman. I cannot have children because I've had cancer. Does that mean I shouldn't be married?]
Of course you can be married Heather. Your comments reflect an emotional reaction rather than a well thought out response.
The point to be made here is that God designed the kind of sexual union, that if it's physically possible, that union could produce and bear children. It's another indicator to what God had designed to fulfill our ultimate purpose.
I chose a life of celibacy when I became a Christian at the age of twenty five. Twenty six years ago I did not think I would find myself still a single, Christian lady at the age of fifty one. But here I am. I started out in my Christian walk in my twenties--plenty of time to meet someone, get married, and have a family. But, the twenties passed me by, then the thirties, and then the forties. I can't believe I'm now in my fifties--no husband--no children.
I am no longer in the child bearing years, but does that mean I cannot marry? NO! Of course I can marry if the opportunity presents itself. But whether it does or whether it doesn't, I will continue to live within the guidelines our Creator set forth as the very best for us--because HE LOVES US more than we love ourselves. The best effort we make to follow the path He has set, will give us the greatest amount of lasting joy possible--as opposed to instant, temporal, gratification.
Above all however, our greatest need is to have a close, intimate relationship with our Wholly Creator God who gives us the identity and significance we lack and soo desperately need. Having an ongoing intimate relationship with our Loving God gives us an Eternal Perspective that allows us to see beyond the temptations and pains of this physical life. And believe me, I know about pain! Unfortunately, it is pain that, more often than not, influences our choices. But God's Love is bigger than our pain.
I understand the fundamental need to be loved and accepted by another human being, or by a group of human beings (after all, I too am a human being made of flesh and blood influenced by feelings and emotions.) Having one special person single us out as their priority gives us the feelings of significance, safety, and security--a sense of groundedness. I understand that. But, there is a difference between having a close, HEALTHY relationship with one of our own gender (someone we feel will always call us their best friend and always be there for us) and that of a same-gender ROMANCE constructed to contract sexual pleasure.
There is a deception in all of this however. Having sex with someone of the same gender (or our best attempt at it anyway) first, is not NATURAL (nature itself tells us this,) and secondly, there is a spiritual and emotional price we pay that is one of perpetual detachment and disconnectedness that, in the process, goes largely undetected.
We may THINK we are getting closer to that person when we are experiencing orgasms with one another, but there will NEVER be the same sort of sexual-emotional bonding found within a heterosexual union. Sexual intercourse MUST involve both sexual organs at the same time in order (for it to even be called sex--to begin with--but more specifically in order) to BECOME ONE the way God designed sex to be (for our ultimate good.)
[ 16 And don’t you realize that if a man joins himself even to a prostitute, he becomes one body with her? For the Scriptures say, "The two are united into one."]
This oneness creates a powerful sexual and emotional connection--not to be entered into lightly with just anyone. This (becoming one) is what God had in mind when He created sex to be experienced between one man and one woman. Anything else falls short of His best for us. Those desiring same-gender marriage have the commitment-to-one-person right, but they are missing the mark on whom to make that commitment with. We would be doing them a disservice to sit back and watch, much less be a part in facilitating, their entering into a union which robs them of the VERY BEST God has for them.
God’s original design for sex is mutual, simultaneous enjoyment of both partners. God is the supreme designer. He knows what's best for us. He created us. We just have to believe He knows what's best for us, and act on that belief through Faith. Uncommon to popular belief, feelings (the ones we REALLY want,) don't come BEFORE the action. Healthy feelings (including joy, peace, significance, self respect, and dignity,) FOLLOW the RIGHT actions; the right actions precede healthy feelings. With proper FAITH in God’s promises, we can make the right, BEST, decisions for ourselves.
I do not share this TRUTH of God's design, or strive to walk in it, because I think I am hollier than anyone else.
[ If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts. 1John 8]
I share these things simply because these are the ways God has called us to. And I continue to learn, (sometimes the hard way) that He really is Trustworthy, and He really does know what is best for us.
Please be assured, I am not coming here as one passing judgment. I am simply revealing what our CREATOR has told us is true, pure, right, and just. To pass judgment would be to presume to know another’s eternal fate. That is not for me to say. However, I would be BEARING FALSE WITNESS, if I did NOT tell you the TRUTH. Truly the institution of MARRIAGE IS A GOD ORDAINED and CREATED INSTITUTION intended to be entered into solemnly and wholly by only ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN.
These are tough decisions when we have soo much invested into our relationships emotionally, but they can be made. Don't give up on yourself or God.
Kay,
Did you get the memo in 1787? Our founding fathers explicitly made it clear that there should be a separation of church and state to prevent the United States from becoming a theocracy. You and every other proponent of Prop 8 I have listened to apparently have complete contempt for this separation, and seek to use the Government as a means to extend religious ideology. This proposition is unfair, unjust, unconstitutional and motivated by bigotry. It has no place being written in to law.
Your points are so full of contradictions and lacking logic it's laughable. "God’s original design for sex is mutual, simultaneous enjoyment of both partners"- Huh, so maybe straight couples who practice oral sex that deviates from the 69 position should not be allowed to marry. Let's write that into the constitution too. You also say nature tells us same sex is not natural. Have you been in nature before? Homosexual behavior is found in numerous species besides humans.
Well enough discussing logic, since it's futile with someone who doesn't believe in the concept. My point here is the Government's purpose in our life is not mandate the religious beliefs of a particular group into law, it is meant to provide for the well being and equality of all people. What consenting adults do in private is of no business of the government, and couples who love each other deserve the right to be married. Straight couples regularly cheat on each other, live in sin if you want to call it that, and yet we do not take away the right to marry from irresponsible straight couples. Prop 8 is obviously an attempt to write prejudice into law.
-Gary
The single greatest threat to marriage is divorce. The divorce rate is currently 50% among evangelical church members as well as the un-churched. Now, shall we ask Rev. Paula White to lead us in prayer to protect marriage?
The second greatest threat to marriage is adultery. Shall we ask Rev. Jimmy Swaggart to tell us once again how to protect marriage?
We need to look inside the church to remedy the breakdown of the family: no more free handouts for unwed mothers, no more easy-out divorces, and adultery should be a felony.
You can't throw stones when you can't see passed the egg on your face. Then again, making someone else "less than" is really what it's all about.
Gary,
[You and every other proponent of Prop 8 I have listened to apparently have complete contempt for this separation, . . . [and seek to use the Government as a means to extend religious ideology.]
It is the same-gender marriage proponents who are showing contempt for the law that is ALREADY WRITTEN defining marriage as being between one man and one woman. Which begs the question, "Who is it that’s USING THE GOVERNMENT for their own means?"
[Huh, so maybe straight couples who practice oral sex that deviates from the 69 position should not be allowed to marry.]
You're being ridiculous and using irrelevant reasoning.
[You also say nature tells us same sex is not natural. Homosexual behavior is found in numerous species besides humans.]
God's design for sex between one man and one woman is for their mutual pleasure—the result is that of ONENESS not possible within any other type of relationship. Also it is through this unique intercourse the two can bear children. No apparent same-sex activity you say takes place in nature produces offspring or children. The mating act we observe in nature between a male and female produces offspring, not orgasms. Human beings are the only created beings that have intellect and therefore the capacity to enjoy both physical and spiritual sexual pleasure simultaneously.
[My point here is the Government's purpose in our life is not mandate the religious beliefs of a particular group into law, it is meant to provide for the well being and equality of all people. What consenting adults do in private is of no business of the government, ]
Exactly!!! Thank you for making my point! Now we’re getting somewhere. What same-gender partners choose to "do in private" has no business being taught about in public schools. Yes! Exactly! It's not for the "well being" of a traditional family (having no interest in the "private" lives of same-sex partners,) to have their child forced to attend a homosexual lifestyle education class in a GOVERNMENT SCHOOL or else face criminal charges.
I repeat the question, "Who's using government for their means? I like the way the facts get twisted and distorted.
What if a clergyman finds it against his convictions to conduct a same-gender wedding ceremony. Will the same-gender couple respect his right to decline and look for someone who agrees with their beliefs? Or will they USE THE GOVERNMENT'S JUDICIAL SYSTEM TO SUE THEM FOR DISCRIMINATION? It seems to me that if the initial motives in pushing for GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION IS FOR THE WELFARE OF ALL, then the same-sex couple would extend due respect and go out of their way to protect the rights of others as well.
Again, who’s being "unfair, unjust, unconstitutional and motivated by bigotry"?
[and couples who love each other deserve the right to be married.]
If Marriage is a God ordained institution, (which it is,) and if one doesn't believe in God and doesn't choose to trust and follow Him, then why would one want to engage in an institution He created?
[Straight couples regularly cheat on each other, live in sin, if you want to call it that, and yet we do not take away the right to marry from irresponsible straight couples.]
That's a good point. Actually, the best thing straight couples living promiscuous lives could do is to step out of that kind of lifestyle into a healthy, monogamous relationship. That’s how powerful the decision to become faithful to only one person is. But to stop there is to miss the spiritual part of the relationship. The spiritual part comes when God is invited into that marriage. God wants to be a part of our marriage. He designed it that way. But he cannot be a part of something that is impure. And it is HE who tells us what purity is. It’s not me. It’s not you.
God truly loves us, and He wants to be the most important part of our lives. But God is a PURE God, better stated, God "IS PURITY." That’s what God is--not who He is but WHAT He is. God can’t be anything other than what He is, so He tells us what we need to do in order to be ONE with Him. We were designed to have an intimate relationship with our loving God--first and foremost. It's out of this close, intimate relationship with God that we find the securiry and wisdom to choose our lifetime partner.
If we want our Lord God to be involved in our lives, we will chose to do what it takes to have Him in us. If we choose, He is in us as the man is in the woman (during physical intercourse.) These are Spiritual matters that most people haven’t learned. But this is why we have the marriage union the way it CURRENTLY IS. Those who wrote that into the original law understood this principle, and our nation has been the better for it.
"’…people suppress the truth…They know the truth about God because He has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created. People have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made they can clearly see His invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuess for not knowing God.’…they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became confused….. Instead of worshipping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshipped idols… They traded the truth about God for a lie (evolution, new age etc.) So they worshipped and served the things God created instead of the Creator Himself, who is worthy of eternal praise!’" Romans 1:18-25
Kay,
I don't understand why you keep attaching this prop 8 to your religious belief. If it's related to the religious belief (you would say personal belief), why can't gay cannot fight for their belief too. Why is it so wrong? Killing is a sin - Loving is NOT!!!
And, just want to emphasize here, NOT everyone has the same god as you have - at least, I don't.
If they all have to accept your, why don't you accepte their. Isn't it fair?
Tom I completely agree with you on the fact that so many gays enter into a gay relationship and then go back to a hetereo one. My niece in fact never expressed being a lesbian until she and her family moved to San Francisco. I voted to disallow same sex marriage for the simple fact that I have two women who are residing in my neighborhood as lesbians. Both came from bad marriages with men and decided to become lesbians. Gay and lesbian life is in born you say..LIKE HELL IT IS! It is a choice and a stupid one at best.
SInce proposition 8's passage I have been on several message boards where the gay community has denounced god and most proclaim to be atheists. This leads me to believe that the reason most gay and lesbian couples or singles do not maintain a relationship with GOD is because deep down inside they know their abnormal behavior isn't right and they must denounce GOD in order to live their lives the way they want to. They know that their behavior is not one of normal behavior and to justify their actions they are denouncing GOD and people who confront them with their behavior. I have noticed that if a person objects to a gay or lesbian lifestyle the gay or lesbian person they are confronting becomes agitated, disrespectful, and begins to try to make the other person feel as tho they are a bigot or worse. Gays and lesbians claim that they do not wish any undue attention yet they are the attention seekers in their endeavor to get PROP 8 reversed. No attention for us they say yet they have that stupid gay parade where they prance around like fools. No need to be different only want to be equal.....GMAFB!!!!!!!!!
definetly i agree 100% awsomeness i love your comment!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:]
who cares!calistar