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Life & Times Transcript

10/5/07

Val Zavala>> Tonight on Life and Times --

There's a plan to crack down on companies that hire undocumented workers, but what are the consequences?

Luawanna Hallstrom>> The problem is whether this group understands or realizes that this is going to affect every American in a negative way.

Mark Krikorian>> Let's get down to what we're talking about here is people who lied, used fake or stolen social security numbers in order to get jobs.

Val Zavala>> And then, ditching school isn't just a childish prank anymore. In Orange County, it can land you in court.

It's all straight on tonight's Life and Times.

Announcer>> Life and Times is made possible through the generous support of the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of medicine, health, science and education.

And by a generous grant from Jim and Anne Rothenberg.

Val Zavala>> For years, critics of illegal immigration have been pushing the government to crack down on the employers who hire undocumented workers. Well, now the government is. Any employer who hires a person with a fishy social security number either has to resolve the problem or fire the person. But that has some employers upset. Why is that? Roger Cooper has our story.

Roger Cooper>> California employers who depend on immigrant workers are facing the possibility of a major crackdown that could force them to fire many of their employees. New rules from the Bush administration would require employers to make sure all of their workers' social security numbers match valid numbers. And when there is no match, the employer would have to dismiss the worker or face criminal consequences.

Luawanna Hallstrom>> This is the train wreck. The no-match solution is not a solution. It is a train wreck.

Craig Silvertooth>> They are interested in spreading pain. They think that's the answer to solving our undocumented immigrant problem.

Mark Krikorian>> I mean, let's get down to what we're talking about here is people who lied, used fake or stolen social security numbers in order to get jobs.

Roger Cooper>> A federal judge has put the so-called no-match plan on temporary hold until hearings are held on lawsuits filed by immigrant rights groups and employers. But the Bush administration still hopes to implement the crackdown, which was announced after Congress refused to go along with the president's call for comprehensive immigration reform.

Michael Chertoff>> Time has run out, so now we're going to go back to the old tools and we're going to sharpen them up as best we can.

Roger Cooper>> Homeland Security Chief, Michael Chertoff, says that means employers will now be held accountable for their hiring.

Michael Chertoff>> People who willfully and consciously hire illegals knowing that they're doing it and knowing that they're committing crimes in order to do it, including identity theft, those are the people that are going to be targeted for criminal sanctions.

Roger Cooper>> In the past, social security has sent out no-match letters like this one informing employers that workers' social security numbers didn't match the federal database. Many just threw the letters away. But if the courts allow the new crackdown to proceed, the next letters will order the employer to straighten out the discrepancy within ninety days and, if they can't, the employer would have to fire every no-match worker or face a twelve thousand dollar fine and a felony prosecution.

Luawanna Hallstrom>> It poses a very difficult problem. I've been on several White House calls.

Roger Cooper>> Luawanna Hallstrom is an expert on farm labor and immigration issues who works with agriculture groups like the California Farm Bureau.

Luawanna Hallstrom>> Well, I think you're going to see a mass exodus of the employees that are out there supporting the ag industry, the health industry, the restaurant, food service, hotel industry, construction.

Roger Cooper>> And Hallstrom says that California's massive farm industry could take a direct hit and this region that feeds the nation could face real difficulty harvesting its crops.

Luawanna Hallstrom>> The sad thing about it is that employers, by fear alone, will be forced to let go of their workforce without having any other sources to fill those jobs.

Roger Cooper>> But supporters of the no-match plan say the crackdown is overdue. Mark Krikorian is with the Center for Immigration Studies. He told the NewsHour that immigration enforcement can't just take place at the border alone.

Mark Krikorian>> It also requires making it hard for illegal immigrants to live normal lives and turning the magnet off that attracts them by making it as hard as possible for illegal immigrants to have regular on-the-books jobs. It makes it harder for them to put down roots and imbed themselves in our society and it makes enforcement easier.

Roger Cooper>> Hallstrom also supports enforcement, but she believes comprehensive immigration reform would have been the better way to do it.

Luawanna Hallstrom>> Well, I think you should be against illegal immigration. I think that we need sensible immigration policy. We need to know who's in our country. We need to secure our borders. The problem is that whether this group, this population, understands or realizes that this is going to affect every American in a negative way.

Roger Cooper>> Hallstrom notes that some no-matches are merely the result of clerical mistakes or errors in the federal database and she predicts that some employers will simply fire workers outright to avoid the hassle of straightening out the no-match or of running the risk of prosecution.

Craig Silvertooth with the National Roofing Contractors Association says his industry is among those the rule would hit hard.

Craig Silvertooth>> Just to give you an example of construction, drywallers and roofers according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, thirty percent of our workforce is undocumented. Insulation, thirty-six percent. So if you have thirty employees, you would lose one-third of your workforce. There's no way that you as a contractor can absorb a loss like that.

Look at agriculture. Seventy to ninety percent of the workers are undocumented, depending on what party of the country you're in and what type of crop. So for a farmer, you know, if they have a hundred employees, a hundred people out in the field, they're still technically a small business and they lose seventy percent overnight?

Roger Cooper>> But the Center for Immigration Studies says employers should avoid making illegal hires in the first place. Krikorian says that they can use the government's online system to check social security numbers.

Mark Krikorian>> The government has a verification program, an online system. My own think tank participates in it. It's voluntary, but that's something that more and more employers need to sign up for so that, at the front end, they can do a better job of making sure they don't end up employing people who are illegal immigrants.

Roger Cooper>> However, Silvertooth says it will take much more than going online to comply with the new rule.

Craig Silvertooth>> What it changes for an individual employer is this. They're now going to have to go out and hire human resources help. They might have to hire attorneys to help them understand and deal with the legal issues that would be associated with it.

We're talking about an industry, in the construction industry at least, where our average firm is a small business. Frequently, the accountant, the bookkeeper, the human resources person, is the owner and frequently their home office is the kitchen.

Luawanna Hallstrom>> And so the employer is going to be left with the responsibility of documenting every phone call, every name, every date, possibly copying screens maybe on computers.

Roger Cooper>> Backers of the no-match rule say at long last the focus would be on the employer.

Mark Krikorian>> So this really puts some teeth in the ban that was passed twenty years ago on employing illegal immigrants, but which has never been really enforced.

Roger Cooper>> But contractors predict there will be a high price to pay.

Craig Silvertooth>> We will put fewer roofs on houses. We'll put fewer roofs on commercial buildings and you're going to see the prices skyrocket. There is absolutely no way that we can deal with this type of regulation and continue to provide the services that the country demands.

Roger Cooper>> In the end, if this no-match rule does go into effect, Hallstrom hopes the fallout will cause the country to reconsider comprehensive immigration reform.

Lauwanna Hallstrom>> And if they can't do that, if they're more comfortable piecing this together -- and I hate to say this because I know how disruptive and how horrible this is going to be for the country -- at least consider the ag jobs pilot program for agriculture. Because to me, the greatest loss of national security is not being able to grow and provide a safe and reliable food source within your own borders.

Roger Cooper>> But one thing that's not on the table for now is a legal immigrant worker program and a temporary restraining order is all that keeps the administration from cracking down on employers. In Orange County, I'm Roger Cooper for Life and Times.

Val Zavala>> So what do you think of the tougher hiring rules? We'd love to know your opinion. Just go to kcet.org/lifeandtimes/blog.

Announcer>> Kcet.org is the place to look for the very latest on Life and Times. You'll find previews of upcoming stories, plus transcripts and audio of past episodes and links to some of our most interesting features. Just go to kcet.org, scroll down the page and click on "Life and Times".

Val Zavala>> The crisis in the sub-prime mortgage market has caused thousands of Californians to lose their homes. Now you may think foreclosure is just one of those things that happens, but it doesn't have to happen. And if you are facing foreclosure, there are certainly ways to soften the blow.

For some advice, we came to the office of Michael Eisenberg. He's with the Financial Literacy Commission of the American Institute of CPAs and a member of Cal CPA. He says there are definitely some things you should think about if you see you're headed for trouble.

So, Michael, there are thousands of people who are facing the prospect of foreclosure. They're seeing their mortgage rates go up and up and up. What can they do now to maybe head off disaster?

Michael Eisenberg>> I think the first thing to do, Val, is for the homeowner to contact their lender and tell them that they may be facing some sort of a problem.

Val Zavala>> And don't wait until the last minute?

Michael Eisenberg>> Don't for until the last moment. The lenders are much more appreciative if you talk to them up front. If you just miss a payment or you're late, that's not going to bode very well for the homeowner. So that's the first thing to do. If you're having that problem, check in with your lender first.

Val Zavala>> Are they pretty understanding?

Michael Eisenberg>> They have been, they have been. They understand what's going on in this day and age as well, so make sure you get the right person too. You just don't want to talk to any one person. For example, if it's at a bank, you don't want to go in and necessarily just talk to the teller. You want to find out who's in charge of making these kinds of decisions.

Val Zavala>> And take notes and record --

Michael Eisenberg>> -- absolutely. Write everything down, keep good records, make sure you're documenting everything that you talk about and who you're talking with. Also, bring your records to the lender as to why you're having problems right now.

It could be that maybe you just lost your job and it's very difficult for you to make the payments. It could be that you have medical issues and those medical bills are creeping up on you. In those instances, the lenders would be sympathetic.

Val Zavala>> So what if you've done all you can and there's just no avoiding it? You just can't make your payments and you're going, "My God, I'm just going to have to foreclose." You're getting the notices and there seems to be no alternative. How can you sort of soften the blow? What should you do so at least this process is not so harmful?

Michael Eisenberg>> Well, there are various techniques that somebody can use. Foreclosure is one technique. That's, of course, when the bank is going to come back and take the property away from you and you're walking away from the house.

There's another way possibly doing what's called the short sale. Short sale is where you sell it either to the bank or to a third party at less than what you owe.

Val Zavala>> So you might owe two hundred fifty thousand and you'd sell it for two hundred?

Michael Eisenberg>> Right.

Val Zavala>> How would that be better than walking away?

Michael Eisenberg>> Well, what happens is, at least it's showing as a sale and not necessarily as a foreclosure, which goes against your credit record. So at least your credit is okay because you've actually made the sale and then you have to make the payments to the bank.

Val Zavala>> You still have to make up that fifty thousand.

Michael Eisenberg>> Exactly, exactly. The things you want to be careful of, and consumers need to be aware of, is that, if you go through the foreclosure, there is the possibility of not only losing the property, but also of having tax implications as well.

Val Zavala>> Explain how that can happen.

Michael Eisenberg>> Well, for example, if the bank does take back the house or they're giving you a forgiveness of the debt, the amount that they're forgiving on that debt under IRS regulations is considered debt forgiveness, or income. You're going to have to pay tax on that debt forgiveness.

Val Zavala>> So give us an example. So let's say you have a five hundred thousand dollar mortgage and the bank takes back the house.

Michael Eisenberg>> The bank takes back the house.

Val Zavala>> Sells it?

Michael Eisenberg>> They're going to sell it for, say, four eighty or something of that nature.

Val Zavala>> Okay.

Michael Eisenberg>> So your debt forgiveness is going to be in the range of twenty thousand dollars.

Val Zavala>> Oh, so you still owe -- if the bank can't sell it for the full value of the mortgage, you might still owe the bank the difference.

Michael Eisenberg>> Or in addition to that, if you owe the five hundred thousand dollars and the bank's going to take back that house and they're forgiving the fact that you're not having to meet that mortgage, then you're going to have to pay tax on the full five hundred thousand as well.

Val Zavala>> Because that's considered --

Michael Eisenberg>> -- forgiveness of debt, which to the IRS is taxable income.

Val Zavala>> You have to pay taxes on it?

Michael Eisenberg>> You have to pay taxes. The bank will issue a 1099 form to you and send a copy to the taxing authorities, both federal and state, by the way. California is involved as well. Now there are a few ways of softening that blow. For example, if you're really in problems financially and you file for a bankruptcy and the obligation is discharged in bankruptcy, then you won't have the tax obligation.

Val Zavala>> I see.

Michael Eisenberg>> The other way is, if you don't go through the bankruptcy, but you literally are insolvent, meaning you have more debts than you have in assets at that time, then the debt forgiveness will not be taxable to you.

Val Zavala>> But some people will say they go into the bank or their lender with this, you know, hardship story that may be legit and what can they do if they say, "Sorry"?

Michael Eisenberg>> Well, you want to talk to your lender and explain what your hardship is. As we said, maybe it's a medical issue or it could be that you lost your job or some issue came about. Get to the sympathetic ear at the lending institution and say to them, "Can you give me a break temporarily?" Or "Give me a forbearance."

Forbearance meaning, "Can you temporarily either forego my payments or give me a smaller payment temporarily until I can get back on my feet again and then I'll start making my payment as I have before?"

Two things can happen. They can either say, "Well, we'll forgive so much of it now totally or what we'll do is we'll forgive it temporarily now and we'll add it on to the loan at the back end." In either instance, your cash flow is improved and you're in a position where you can keep the house and not lose it.

Val Zavala>> There's also another term that perhaps you can explain. Deed-in-lieu of payment?

Michael Eisenberg>> Right. Deed-in-lieu. What that's doing is, you're still losing the house basically, but you're deeding it over to the lender. By deeding it over to the lender, it means it's almost as if you're selling it to the lender.

In that transaction, you're not having a negative connotation on your credit report because you didn't go into foreclosure and you didn't file bankruptcy. You more or less sold the house back to the lender and that's called deed-in-lieu of foreclosure.

Val Zavala>> I see. So you don't have the foreclosure on your record. Does it still have the same effect as a foreclosure? You still have to move out? It's not your house anymore?

Michael Eisenberg>> It does. You're going to have to move out. You're no longer in the house. Some of the tax implications could still be there. You have to be aware of that. But most importantly, you're not going to have a negative connotation on your credit ratings.

Val Zavala>> So these are great pieces of advice, but everyone is in a very individualized situation. So what's the best thing they can do to find out what's best for them?

Michael Eisenberg>> Well, the first thing I would recommend for somebody is to go see a qualified professional, a CPA, if they have a CPA or if they know of a CPA because CPAs are extremely knowledgeable about these particular topics. If it gets very, very technical and legal, then you might want to see an attorney who specializes in real estate law.

The one thing you don't want to do is you don't want to make decisions on your own because it's very complicated. You don't want to talk to the loan broker because they're not necessarily going to know all of the nuances of the tax law or of the legalities of the real estate law.

Val Zavala>> That's if you get to the foreclosure stage.

Michael Eisenberg>> Exactly, exactly. So seek out a professional.

Val Zavala>> What if you can't afford one?

Michael Eisenberg>> There are a lot of people that will work with you on a pro bono basis if you have a couple of questions and if you come in with a recommendation from another person who is a client of that professional. I'm sure that, in situations where people are facing hardships, professionals are there to help. The vast majority of professionals are willing to spend a little bit of their time helping out individuals.

Val Zavala>> Michael Eisenberg with Cal CPA, thank you very much. Really helpful advice.

Michael Eisenberg>> You're welcome. Thank you.

Val Zavala>> For help negotiating with your lender, you can contact the Association of Independent Consumer Credit Counseling Agencies at aiccca.org.

Announcer>> To send a comment or a question to our program, you can reach us by mail at this address:

Life and Times
4401 Sunset Blvd.
Los Angeles, California 90027

You can also call our viewer comment line (323) 953-5555) or contact us the fast way by e-mail at kcet.org.

Val Zavala>> It used to be an innocent part of growing up, skipping school and heading to your favorite fishing hole, but the Huck Finn notion of playing hooky is long gone. Today, truancy is often the first step toward prison, so would putting truants on trial help? David Okarski goes to Orange County to see how one community is tackling truancy.

David Okarski>> Twenty-six hundred students bustle between classes on the Paramount High School campus. Among them, at least six hundred are struggling to catch up after months, sometimes years, of skipping school.

Cynthia>> I started skipping school the second semester of my sophomore year. I didn't have much friends at school and I thought I wasn't part of the "in" crowd, so I felt that and I didn't feel like trying at school. So I found a way to not come to school and to make my parents think that I did.

Reneshia>> Second semester, not great. I was hanging around people and that's what started getting me to ditch. I started ditching and then, in my tenth grade year, I didn't come to school that whole semester because I just liked being at home.

Greg>> I started ditching school February and the reason for that is because, you know, my girlfriend was pregnant and, you know, I wanted to be with her all the time.

David Okarski>> These former truants are back in class because Paramount High School administrators declared war on truancy.

Gwen Baker>> When I first started here, we were at ninety-three percent. Our annual attendance rate was at ninety-three percent.

David Okarski>> And with help from probation officers and a program funded under the state's Juvenile Justice Crime Prevention Act, Assistant Principal Gwen Baker has become a captain on the front lines.

Gwen Baker>> And last year, we ended at ninety-six percent and I'm told that, for a school with our student population, that that's impossible. But it's not impossible when you go out there and you knock on doors.

David Okarski>> Baker and her colleagues at Paramount are among a growing number of educators, public health researchers and juvenile justice officials nationwide who are realizing the far-reaching importance of identifying truants and getting them back to school. In fact, the U.S. Department of Education and the Justice Department are sponsoring a national conference on truancy. One keynote speaker tells Life and Times that truants are more likely than others to develop health problems related to drugs, alcohol, tobacco and sex and are more prone to suicide.

Teacher>> "And now I want you to think about twenty years in the future at 2024. What do you think the world is going to be like?"

David Okarski>> Although California has tracked attendance and dropouts for years, it's only now begun collecting truancy data because of the federal No Child Left Behind Act. But the State Department of Education says, out of six million kindergarten through twelfth grade students last year, almost ten percent were truants under California law and that estimate is probably low.

>> "Nickel bags of marijuana or dime bags?"

>> "Yeah."

David Okarski>> Some jurisdictions approach truancy more seriously than others. In Los Angeles County, police can detain and cite children found off campus during school hours. The county-wide daytime curfew has proved an important crime-fighting tool.

>> "Now are we going to take somebody to jail for this?"

>> "No, but we cited them all."

>> "For what?"

>> "Truancy."

>> "Okay."

Susan Reizman>> Well, we definitely have found that there is some link between truancy and juvenile crimes.

David Okarski>> Orange County's truancy response project pays for Deputy District Attorney Susan Reizman's twice weekly talks to families of children who are skipping school.

Susan Reizman>> I think the message is two-fold. It is, on one hand, to educate them as to what the law is on truancy, what the program is here in Orange County, and that we are prosecuting parents and students for truancy law violations. "Right now we often hear, especially from parents of teenagers, that my child won't listen to me, they're out of control. Until they turn eighteen, children are ultimately your responsibility."

David Okarski>> Parents like Marco Martinez appreciate the information, but often feel powerless to make their kids go to class.

Marco Martinez>> In fact, another mother of a student was saying that she takes them right to the front of the door. But, unfortunately, you know, that school is big and there are so many students, they take off for the opposite side of the school.

David Okarski>> If the children and their parents don't get the Deputy District Attorney's message, they could end up here at the Betty Lou Lamoreaux Juvenile Justice Center in the courtroom of Presiding Judge, Robert Hutson.

Robert Hutson>> When they come to me, they have a choice of just one of two things. They're going to be in school in the community of their choice or they'll be in school in the Juvenile Hall, but they will be in school.

David Okarski>> Judge Hutson convenes a weekly truancy court.

Robert Hutson>> I have, more often than not, successful stories where the children finally realize that, by getting to the court, leaving the school setting where there's sort of a familiarity and a safety with it and they're now facing a representative of the government in the form of a judge and there's no nonsense accountability there, the smart children conform, pick up their britches and go to school.

David Okarski>> Back in Paramount, the hardcore truants end up appearing before the School Attendance Review Board.

Reneshia>> S.A.R.B.?

David Okarski>> It's called S.A.R.B. for short. Gwen Baker says every California school district should have one.

Reneshia>> When I got a notice that I need to attend the S.A.R.B., that's when they kind of like scared me a little bit. It was getting a little too serious.

Gwen Baker>> A lot of kids have come to my office and said thank you because it's hard to break away from peer pressure, but what they're finding is, if they tell their friends that the judge is making me go to school, then it's much easier. Go figure, but that's their world.

Cynthia>> It really helped me when I went to S.A.R.B. and I seen the lawyer right there because I'm almost thinking they're helping someone. I could be sitting there in the future helping someone else that was going where I was going. I want to get there. I want to go to law school.

Greg>> At first, my grades were A's, A's, A's. Now they're not so good right now. Now I got to make up all the work.

David Okarski>> So you were getting A's before you left school?

Greg>> Oh, yeah. 4.0.

David Okarski>> In what subjects?

Greg>> All of them. Math, my electives, language arts, economics.

David Okarski>> One recent study by the Public Policy Institute of California suggests school attendance may be a more important factor in improving reading and math skills than class size or teacher qualifications. The lesson is simple. The less you go to school, the less you learn.

Reneshia>> Right now, yes, it's hard. Sometimes I do feel like giving up, but I just sit there and think like since I came this far, I'm not going to stop until I finish.

Greg>> A big event for me was Ms. Baker. She made me realize that I really have to come to school and get an education before I get off track or before something happens. I thank her for that.

Cynthia>> First I kept on seeing my parents' reactions. I started skipping school and I would get home and listen to them yell at me and say that I was doing the wrong things. I knew they were right and that's why it really bugged me. I don't want to see them like that anymore.

Greg>> If I stay in school and get my education and get good grades, I think I have a good shot at getting a football scholarship. A good shot.

David Okarski>> You mean go to college?

Greg>> Yeah, go to a four-year university.

Reneshia>> After I graduate, I want to go to a four-year university because I want to major in real estate and I want to be a real estate agent.

David Okarski>> Gwen Baker says these and other bright talented students can achieve their dreams if adults care enough to make sure children go to school. David Okarski for Life and Times.

Val Zavala>> And that's our program. I'm Val Zavala. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

Announcer>> Life and Times was made possible through the generous support of the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of medicine, health, science and education.

And by a generous grant from Jim and Anne Rothenberg.

Sponsored in part by:


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