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Life & Times Transcript

9/27/07

Val Zavala>> Tonight on Life and Times --

They're tracking down people who ignored orders to leave the country, but are predawn raids going too far?

Lisann Martinez>> A lot of people are scared to send their kids to school because they're afraid what if the Immigration goes to our schools and takes our kids.

James Hayes>> I say that individuals who are complying with the law and who are here in the United States legally have absolutely nothing to fear.

Val Zavala>> And then, it's called "Feast of Love", but is it a hearty meal or just a snack? Our critics make the call.

[Film Clip]

It's all straight ahead on tonight's Life and Times.

Announcer>> Life and Times is made possible through the generous support of the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of medicine, health, science and education.

And by a generous grant from Jim and Anne Rothenberg.

Val Zavala>> Are they enforcing immigration laws or just terrorizing Latino neighborhoods? ICE agents in Orange County are cracking down. ICE is the new INS. They say that they're simply arresting undocumented workers who have defied deportation orders, but critics say they're terrorizing Latino neighborhoods. So which is it? Orange County reporter Roger Cooper went along on a predawn raid to see how the operation works.

>> "We go up to the residence. Officer Torres, if you'll go in the back so we get eyes on. You few guys, if you want to stay in perimeter, so that way we get the location locked down. We go in, get the target and we'll leave. We don't want to stay any longer than we have to."

Roger Cooper>> It is 5:30 in the morning in Costa Mesa, California, and a team from Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE, has assembled. Moments later, a caravan carrying the ICE officers is rolling through the streets. Carefully and quietly, the armed ICE officers surround a home, then rouse those inside from sleep.

>> "Police. Can you come to the door, please?"

Roger Cooper>> The team finds the man they have come for at a door in the rear of the house.

>> "Tell them we have contact."

Roger Cooper>> ICE has just executed an arrest warrant. It alleges that this man has failed to comply with an order that he be deported back to Mexico. The detainee is frisked and placed in a Homeland Security van as the woman he left behind in the house sobs audibly. Then the ICE fugitive operations team rolls on to surround yet another house to pick up another person for deportation.

>> "For what?"

>> "Because of the order of deportation, you have a warrant for your arrest."

Roger Cooper>> This is a scene now being repeated on a daily basis as ICE intensifies its efforts to locate and deport fugitives.

James Hayes>> Estimates are that there are approximately six hundred thousand fugitive aliens in the country. For the first time in 2007, we've reduced the overall population nationwide.

Roger Cooper>> Field Office Director, James Hayes, notes that in June, ICE created a new enforcement team just for Orange County. It makes the fifth ICE fugitive team operating in the Los Angeles area. Nationally, the number of teams has tripled in two years.

James Hayes>> So by increasing teams, we're seeing a significant effect on the fact that people now know that they cannot simply ignore these orders of deportation.

Roger Cooper>> But these stepped-up ICE operations have triggered strong criticism in immigrant neighborhoods.

Lisann Martinez>> It causes fear and terror in the communities.

Roger Cooper>> They say the operations create a climate where people are afraid to leave their homes because they might be detained by ICE and deported. Lisann Martinez is with the group, Front Against the Raids.

Lisann Martinez>> It's real sad. A lot of people are scared to send their kids to school because they're afraid what if the Immigration goes to our school and takes our kids.

Recording>> "You have called the anti-raids hotline. To report on any immigration raids or any suspicious activity, please mark your message urgent and leave your contact information."

Roger Cooper>> In response to ICE enforcement, activist groups in Orange County and Los Angeles have set up telephone hotlines encouraging people to report ICE actions. This activist behind the hotline wanted his identity hidden for his safety.

>> "We can't wait around for people to just get deported. You know, we have to like act now to get them out of detention."

James Hayes>> I'm quite frankly concerned that these hotlines might be used in a nefarious way to create a dangerous situation for our officers. I'm not sure that they provide any good to the public. Certainly they don't provide any good to our officers.

Roger Cooper>> But activists insist that the purpose of the hotline is to give people information about their legal rights and what to do in case ICE comes to their door. Santa Ana attorney Juan Barba, who specializes in immigration cases, disputes ICE's contention that it targets only fugitives and criminals.

Juan Barba>> If that was the case, I would say that's great. They should go after criminals, people who are disobeying, who are evading the law. However, my office has been receiving calls that people are being detained at bus stops, people walking or riding their bikes in their neighborhood.

James Hayes>> Well, there's no evidence to support that. We don't have vans out patrolling the streets looking for people on the street. That's not how we do our business.

Roger Cooper>> ICE says that, while its main target is fugitives and criminals, its officers won't ignore undocumented immigrants who cross their path.

James Hayes>> But some of the time, we do find people that the only law they've broken is to come into this country illegally. However, that's still breaking the law.

Lisann Martinez>> If they go and do their ICE raids in a community, they're going to have to take everybody, not just the Hispanic people. They're going to have to take Anglos, they're going to have to take blacks. They're going to have to take everybody because there's a lot of different nationalities running around with no papers.

Roger Cooper>> But ICE denies it's using racial profiling.

James Hayes>> Well, as you saw today, the five targets on the operation that you went out on, these were people that we investigated because of their immigration and criminal histories, not because of what they look like.

These aren't vans that are patrolling the streets looking for people just based on what they look like. That's not what we do. That's never what we do. In a fugitive operations program, we're targeting individuals who have been ordered removed by an immigration judge and failed to depart the country.

Roger Cooper>> Attorney Juan Barba says the ICE enforcement is breaking up a lot of families as members suddenly disappear into the deportation system.

Juan Barba>> Primarily the breadwinner of the family is usually the one who gets unexpectedly detained and deported. As a result of that, many children, spouses and family members become separated.

James Hayes>> In terms of breaking up families, I disagree with that. At no time has this agency said to a parent that they cannot bring their child to their home country where they have legal status. If parents choose to do that, that's a question for the parents.

Roger Cooper>> Lisann Martinez says that communities are living under the fear that they could be asked for their papers at any moment.

Lisann Martinez>> I would actually like for them to pick me up if they want to, you know, so I can show that they have to pick everybody up because I'm a person who was born here and everything like that. I feel this is humanity we're talking about.

James Hayes>> I say that individuals who are complying with the law and who are here in the United States legally have absolutely nothing to fear.

Roger Cooper>> The end of a day's ICE enforcement operation comes at this federal facility in downtown Santa Ana. This is the place where undocumented immigrants are forced to leave the country. The men in this group were about to be put aboard a plane and deported to Nicaragua. Others will board the buses that leave here regularly bound for Mexico.

One of the two men we saw picked up at dawn now awaits deportation to Latvia, but the other man was soon released pending an appeal to the Ninth Circuit. And at five a.m. tomorrow, the ICE officers will be rolling again, manning the front lines in enforcement of immigration. In Orange County, I'm Roger Cooper for Life and Times.

Val Zavala>> So what do you think of the raids by ICE agents? You can post your opinion. Just go to kcet.org/lifeandtimes/
blog.

Announcer>> Kcet.org is the place to look for the very latest on Life and Times. You'll find previews of upcoming stories, plus transcripts and audio of past episodes and links to some of our most interesting features. Just go to kcet.org, scroll down the page and click on "Life and Times".

Val Zavala>> The internet has opened up a whole new forum for sex offenders. Now some sites like child pornography are, of course, criminal. But what about others? What if a pedophile simply fantasizes on the internet? Is that a crime?

A judge recently issued a restraining order against professed pedophile, Jack McClellan. It was based mainly on statements he posted on his website. Tony Zinnanti is the attorney who secured the restraining order against McClellan. He joins us at our Kitchen Table for a debate with Eugene Volokh, constitutional law professor at UCLA. David Lehrer of CommUnity Advocates kicks off our debate.

David Lehrer>> Gene, Tony, the McClellan case, an admitted pedophile, has dominated the news recently and raised, I think, some fascinating constitutional and legal issues. Tony, give us a little background. You were the attorney going to court looking for a temporary restraining order to prevent Mr. McClellan from certain activities. Give us a little background on him and what you did.

Tony Zinnanti>> Right. With Mr. McClellan, when he came to our town in Santa Clarita, it appeared that he had some proclivities which were clearly of concern. The fact of the matter was, after several news stories, it became clear that he was quite brazen about his activity.

David Lehrer>> About being interested in young girls.

Tony Zinnanti>> Right, exactly. The fact is, where he's out and he's shadowing these kids, he's photographing them, he's loitering per his own statements.

David Lehrer>> And then he's got a website. He blogs about it or he puts the pictures on the internet?

Tony Zinnanti>> Right. What he was doing was, he was surreptitiously taking photographs of these little girls and placing them on the internet under the guise of pedophilia for the sake of rating them or showing, you know, where these kids can be found.

David Lehrer>> And giving advice to other pedophiles about where to go to public places, where to find young kids, what are the hot spots in southern California. Is that it?

Tony Zinnanti>> Right, exactly. That was something that was a tremendous concern with respect to Mr. McClellan's activities.

David Lehrer>> So you went to court looking for a restraining order asking the court to order Mr. McClellan to stay away from --

Tony Zinnanti>> To stay away from the Santa Clarita Valley. What I asked for -- and this is the fascinating part about the story -- is that I asked for very limited relief. I gave the judge this much to work with and I asked for basically this much. I just wanted a perimeter of safety around kids in Santa Clarita. The judge made it statewide.

David Lehrer>> Okay, Gene, an expert on constitutional law. What do you think about, given the facts as described by Tony?

Eugene Volokh>> Well, McClellan is a very dangerous guy. I'd like to see him locked up. If there's evidence that he's committed a crime, the police should be locking him up. But in our legal system, you can't lock someone up or even substantially restrain his liberty. The injunction in this case orders him to stay at least ten yards away from anywhere where minor children congregate. That could be playgrounds or it could be malls. Minor children is anybody up to age seventeen.

You can't issue those kinds of orders that interfere with somebody's ability to go to a wide range of places just because a judge is afraid and just because the person has bad attitudes or even we think bad intentions. That's not the way our criminal justice system works.

Generally, you can be punished and restrained in your liberty for what you have done or you have conspired to do or have attempted to do under the legal definition of attempt, and not for what we're afraid you might do but we've never been able to convict you of anything.

David Lehrer>> So you think it's not even a close call?

Eugene Volokh>> Yeah, I think this injunction is unconstitutional. It also seems to me to be not authorized by the statute. The statute involved the relevant portion that deals with no injunctions based on knowing and willful course of conduct directed at a specific person. Those injunctions would favor that person.

That language of specific person is important. There is room in the law for narrow injunctions that order you to stay away from one particular person. The theory is that you could have kind of modest --

David Lehrer>> -- a stalker.

Eugene Volokh>> Yeah, a modest amount of due process for a modest restriction. The restriction says, look, all you need to do is stay away from this person you're stalking. But when the injunction turns into an order that bars him from being within thirty feet of any place where minor children are present, as I said, seventeen year olds, or contacting any minor child, that means that if he is at a McDonalds and there's somebody he knows behind the county who's sixteen, he can't literally talk to him because that would be contacting a minor child.

Those kinds of injunctions of that breadth I don't think is authorized by the statute nor by the constitutions.

David Lehrer>> I mean, there really is a profound tension here between you think this guy is bad and dangerous and he proclaims apparently openly, "I'm a bad and dangerous guy." But as far as we know, he hasn't done anything other than take pictures which you can do in public of anybody out there in the public.

Eugene is saying, if he's only talking and only doing what normal people do, the legal system isn't equipped to deal with that. We have constitutional protections against that. How do you respond?

Tony Zinnanti>> All right. My response to that is, I can't limit this to the parameters of that factual scenario because what's dangerous here and what's very relevant to your points is Mr. McClellan's stated intent. Specifically in the fact pattern, you'll see that he states that he would use the "need a ride" excuse to potentially lure someone to get into his car.

Eugene Volokh>> As I understand it, that's actually a quote from a third party who claims to have borrowed it from a previous site. From what I saw of your papers, it wasn't actually authenticated as a statement of McClellan's, but just a third party report of something McClellan had said.

Without any context describing whether this was a fantasy, whether this was a plan, whether this was an actual attempt to commit a crime that was aborted, if he indeed attempted to commit a crime, then in that case, I think it would be wonderful.

David Lehrer>> Charge him with a crime.

Eugene Volokh>> Charge him, prosecute him, lock him up. Once, even if he's released, at that point, he becomes subject to various sex offender laws that are based on the previous conviction. But this doesn't seem very strong evidence, this indirect, unauthenticated report.

Tony Zinnanti>> Well, let me put the facts back on you then, all right? With the question that let's assume that that statement is authenticated, okay? There's a lot of facts that have come to fruition here.

David Lehrer>> Reiterate. What's the statement again?

Tony Zinnanti>> Okay. The statement being "need a ride". He's in a Food Pantry with little children around and he's contemplating luring someone into his car per his blog, which is a party opponent admission. It's not hearsay.

David Lehrer>> By assumption, yeah.

Tony Zinnanti>> Eugene, assuming it's properly authenticated, is "need a ride" the kind of statement we should be concerned about?

Eugene Volokh>> Well, actually, as I understand the statement, he was thinking about how maybe if things had been otherwise, he might have tried to lure a child into his car. That is pretty indirect. I don't think that's the sort of thing you can get an attempt conviction.

If you can find that he actually approached a child and there's evidence to show that he had intent to molest the child and asked the child for a ride and the child fled, that is criminal attempt. It sounds like it would be under those hypothetical circumstances.

In that case, I'm all in favor of arresting the guy, prosecuting him, throwing the book at him. Then again, once he's released from prison, which I hope won't be for a long time, having him be subject to a wide panoply of restraints that are imposed on people.

But that's hypothetical. His statement, even assuming this third party account is correct, was what he was thinking about, he was contemplating. In our legal system, you can't punish someone for contemplating.

Tony Zinnanti>> He has a course of conduct that corroborates his stated specific intent.

Eugene Volokh>> Stated specific intent to do what?

Tony Zinnanti>> Stated specific intent to surreptitiously photograph kids and put them --

Eugene Volokh>> -- it's not a crime to photograph kids without parents' permission.

Tony Zinnanti>> It's not a crime, but it's a civil tort.

David Lehrer>> So, Eugene, how do you think this is going to end?

Eugene Volokh>> I think that this injunction is going to get vacated. What I hope is going to happen is that the police find evidence that he's committed some crime or has attempted or conspired to commit some crime and prosecute him through the traditional criminal justice system, at which point he can be restrained in lots of ways.

But an injunction this broad can't be issued simply because we think, perhaps quite rightly, that he's a very bad guy and he has bad desires. That's not the way our legal system works.

David Lehrer>> Tony?

Tony Zinnanti>> I appreciate Eugene's position, but the fact of the matter is, the record of facts shows something else and that's what this order is based upon. It was issued by a very seasoned bench officer, Judge Melvin Sandvig, who has seen quite a few bad guys come through his courtroom, and he wasn't willing to risk the welfare of minor children.

David Lehrer>> And we're not willing to risk the wrath of KCET. So thank you, Tony, and thank you, Eugene.

Tony Zinnanti>> Thank you.

Eugene Volokh>> Thank you.

Announcer>> To send a comment or a question to our program, you can reach us by mail at this address:

Life and Times
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Larry Mantle>> Welcome to FilmWeek on Life and Times. I'm Larry Mantle of 89.3 KPCC. Sorry we missed you last night due to the presidential candidates' debate, but great to be with you tonight. First up, we have a film, the centerpiece of which is a terrorist attack on an American compound in Saudi Arabia. Jamie Foxx, Jennifer Garner and Chris Cooper star in "The Kingdom".

[Film Clip]

Larry Mantle>> I'm joined this week by critics Claudia Puig of USA Today and Andy Klein of CityBeat. Claudia, what did you think of "The Kingdom"?

Claudia Puig>> Well, I think that it was kind of more of a police procedural than a 9/11 thriller, which I think it was trying hard to be. I think there was some jingoism to it. I think it was trying to a thriller in the vein of "The Bourne Ultimatum", but I think that "The Bourne Ultimatum" was a much better movie.

Having said that, Jamie Foxx did a perfectly good job. Jennifer Garner did some great action stunt work, calling upon her "Alias" kind of thing. I have some problems with the us versus them. There was a very definite sort of attempt at a profound message that didn't quite come across. At the same time, it's trying to be this kick-ass thriller.

The last half hour actually qualifies as a pretty viable thriller. There's a great chase scene. But, you know, it's ultimately disappointing, but perfectly entertaining.

Larry Mantle>> Academy Award-winning director, Robert Benton, is at the helm of the new ensemble film, "Feast of Love". It stars Morgan Freeman and Greg Kinnear and is set in the greater Portland area.

[Film Clip]

Larry Mantle>> "Feast of Love", Andy?

Andy Klein>> Yeah, this is sort of the opposite film from "The Kingdom" and I'm glad they still do make films like this. It's a very low-key sort of romantic not quite comedy that's just an observational film about how people behave. It takes place in Portland where Morgan Freeman plays a professor who, for reasons we learn, is taking a kind of extended sabbatical.

He's married, but he spends a lot of time hanging out in this coffee house run by Greg Kinnear who's going through all kinds of marital problems, repeated marriages during the course of the film, in fact. There are some other couples whose interaction we see. Basically, director Robert Benton, who did "Kramer vs. Kramer" and "Places in the Heart" who's a first-rate director of actors, gets good work from everybody.

The film has its insights. There's something so low-key about it that it's almost television. I mean, other than the quality of performance, I could see why a studio wouldn't make this, which is why I'm glad they did. It's the kind of film that's tough to sell, but it's worthwhile.

Larry Mantle>> Do you agree, Claudia?

Claudia Puig>> I do. Speaking of almost television, I would say it kind of had the feeling of maybe the pilot of "Thirty Something", only the age group goes from like twenty to sixty or sixty-five, and then with a little love actually kind of thrown in. A little less glib than "Love Actually" and a little less comedic than that. It occasionally has some interesting observations on love and on loss.

It's a little manipulative. There are times when it's tugging at your heartstrings in a pretty obvious way and you can choose to go with it or not. But it was really nice to see Jane Alexander on the screen again. I thought she and Morgan Freeman had more touching scenes, and Greg Kinnear was very likable. Yeah, I agree with you. I think it's nice to see something like that. You know, it's a nice diversion. It's not a top-notch film.

Larry Mantle>> The film, "Trade", is set in the communities of Mexico City and the United States and takes us behind the scenes into the world of the sex trafficking of minors.

[Film Clip]

Larry Mantle>> Claudia Puig, what did you think of "Trade"?

Claudia Puig>> Well, in contrast to something like "Feast of Love" which was very, you know, entertaining and gentle, this is a jarring film that is very difficult to sit through.

It's about an important subject of child sex trafficking with some really impressive performances from Cesar Ramos, a young actor from Mexico, and Paulina Gaitan, a thirteen year old girl who is abducted riding her bike in a neighborhood outside of Mexico City, taken off to the United States in trying to cross the border.

There's a little bit of discussion of immigration problems. It's in the film as well, but I'd say that it's really more about child sex trafficking. There's some very difficult scenes to watch.

The brother chases after his sister after she has been abducted at thirteen years old and teams up with Kevin Kline. There's a nice sort of back and forth chemistry between them. It's always nice to see Kevin Kline.

Larry Mantle>> Nice to see Kevin Kline in a film.

Claudia Puig>> Yeah, yeah, and in a film that's very different and has something very profound to say. In much the same way that last year we were seeing movies about children who were being made into soldiers, this is that kind of important film. There's a crawl at the end that tells you that, between five hundred to a hundred thousand kids globally are used in this terrible way. So it's an important film and I actually felt it was done well and in no way exploitational.

Larry Mantle>> Academy Award-winner, Alan Arkin, stars in the new film, "Raising Flagg". He plays a crusty handyman. Barbara Dana and Glenne Headly are in the cast as well.

[Film Clip]

Larry Mantle>> "Raising Flagg", Andy?

Andy Klein>> Yeah, this is a film that I think actually, unlike "Feast of Love", I think this really was made for television and it's getting a theatrical release. It's sort of a sequel to a film made twenty years ago that had been produced and written by Neal Miller who directs this time around with Alan Arkin and his ex-wife, Barbara Dana, playing a couple who live in a small town in Oregon.

By the time they got around to shooting the film, Arkin and Dana had gotten divorced after thirty-five years and still decided to go ahead and reprise the roles they had played back in the middle of their marriage.

Arkin is playing a cantankerous old man who is such a stubborn jerk that he sues his best friend and he wins the lawsuit, but he alienates the entire town. He's losing his livelihood and he decides he's going to die and all the children have to be gathered. It's a nice little movie. Barbara Dana really steals the show.

Larry Mantle>> Thanks for joining us for another FilmWeek on Life and Times. I'm Larry Mantle of 89.3 KPCC joined by critics Andy Klein of CityBeat and Claudia Puig of USA Today. Please join us again next Thursday, our usual time, for the next FilmWeek on Life and Times.

Val Zavala>> For a longer version of FilmWeek, tune in to KPCC public radio Friday at eleven a.m. And that's our program. I'm Val Zavala. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next time.

Announcer>> Life and Times was made possible through the generous support of the L.K. Whittier Foundation dedicated to improving the quality of life by supporting innovative endeavors in the fields of medicine, health, science and education.

And by a generous grant from Jim and Anne Rothenberg.

Sponsored in part by:


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