2/21/03

LC030221

VAL ZAVALA>> TONIGHT ON LIFE AND TIMES --

JESS MARLOW>> FORECASTING THE WEATHER FOR A COMBAT ZONE. IT’S A HIGH-TECH SCIENCE THAT COULD GIVE AMERICAN TROOPS A MAJOR ADVANTAGE IN IRAQ.

CHRIS GUNTERSON>> AND IF YOU’RE GOING TO DO WAR, THE WAY TO DO IT, YOU DON’T PLAY FAIR. YOU ACHIEVE AS GREAT AN ADVANTAGE OVER YOUR ADVERSARY AS YOU CAN AND YOU HIT THEM WITH EVERYTHING YOU’VE GOT.

VAL>> AND THEN REPORTERS ON THE FRONT LINES. WE’LL MEET SOME OF THE LOCAL JOURNALISTS WHO’VE GOTTEN SPECIAL TRAINING TO COVER A WAR WITH IRAQ. BUT IS THE PENTAGON REALLY SERIOUS ABOUT LETTING THEM TELL THEIR STORIES?

JESS>> PLUS, AWARD-WINNING SCREENWRITER, BILL CONDON, ON HIS LATEST HIT, “CHICAGO”.

VAL>> IT’S ALL STRAIGHT AHEAD ON TONIGHT’S LIFE AND TIMES.

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AND THE CALIFORNIA ENDOWMENT
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VAL>> FORECASTING THE WEATHER WHEN THERE IS NO MARGIN FOR ERROR.

JESS>> THAT’S THE CHALLENGE FACING THE PENTAGON IF AMERICA GOES TO WAR WITH IRAQ. IT’S THE KIND OF PRESSURE YOUR FAVORITE TV WEATHERMAN OR WOMAN WILL NEVER KNOW AND, AS GAY YEE REPORTS, THAT’S WHY THE U.S. MILITARY IS PULLING OUT ALL THE HIGH-TECH TOOLS FOR THE BATTLEFIELD.

GAY YEE>> IF AMERICA GOES TO WAR WITH IRAQ, THE MARINES WILL BE AMONG THE FIRST TO HIT THE GROUND, BUT THIS ELITE CORPS OF MILITARY MIGHT WON’T HAVE TO RELY SOLELY ON MUSCLE, SKILL AND KNOW-HOW. MORE THAN EVER, THESE TROOPS AND MANY MORE LIKE THEM ARE COUNTING ON CUTTING EDGE TECHNOLOGY TO GIVE THEM A CLEAR EDGE ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

PETER JOHNSON>> THIS MIGHT BE SOMETHING INTERESTING HERE AS A POTENTIAL TARGET. I DON’T KNOW IF THAT LOOKS LIKE A --

GAY YEE>> -- MILITARY PLANE OR SOMETHING?

PETER JOHNSON>> PERHAPS.

GAY YEE>> SGI, MAKER OF SUPER COMPUTERS, HELD THIS DEMONSTRATION AT A RECENT CONVENTION IN LONG BEACH. DIGITIZED PHOTOS FROM SATELLITES AND RECONNAISSANCE PLANES WERE USED TO CREATE THESE IMAGES OF DOWNTOWN BAGHDAD, WHICH ARE BEING USED IN SIMULATORS TO TRAIN OUR MILITARY PILOTS.

PETER JOHNSON>> PILOTS ARE ABLE TO FLY, IN THIS CASE, OVER DOWNTOWN BAGHDAD -- HERE’S THE PALACE, ONE OF THE PALACES -- AND DO POTENTIAL MISSION REHEARSALS WITHOUT EVER HAVING TO BE IN AN AIRPLANE.

GAY YEE>> THESE SAME COMPUTERS ARE CRUNCHING FOR ANOTHER MISSION, FORECASTING THE WEATHER FOR WAR.

JILL MATZKE>> WELL, I’M SURE EVERYBODY HAS BEEN HEARING ABOUT THE IMPENDING POSSIBLE ACTIVITY IN THE MIDDLE EAST. ONE OF THE BIG FACTORS THERE, OF COURSE, IS THE STRATEGY OF WEATHER. YOU KNOW, WHEN IS THE WEATHER GOING TO BE, YOU KNOW, EITHER GOOD ENOUGH FOR US AND BAD ENOUGH FOR THEM TO GIVE US AN ADVANTAGE.

DR. RICHARD SPINRAD>> GO, NO GO. LAUNCH, DON’T LAUNCH. IT’S ONE THING TO TRY TO DECIDE WHETHER WE’RE GOING TO HAVE A PICNIC HERE IN MY BACK YARD ON SATURDAY AND, BASED ON WHAT I’VE SEEN IN THE FORECASTS, I’D SAY IT’S A PRETTY GOOD CHANCE I CAN DO THAT. NOW IMAGINE A GLOBE, STEP BACK FIVE PACES AND THROW A DART AT THE GLOBE.

GAY YEE>> TO MAKE THAT DECISION, THE U.S. NAVY AND THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE RELY ON INFORMATION FROM THIS PLACE LOCATED UP THE COAST IN MONTEREY. THE FLEET NUMERICAL METEOROLOGY AND OCEANOGRAPHY CENTER OPERATES TWENTY-FOUR HOURS A DAY, SEVEN DAYS A WEEK, AND TAKES IN DATA FROM SATELLITES AND SENSORS FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD. THE INFORMATION IS PROCESSED THROUGH SUPER COMPUTERS TO PREDICT OCEAN CHANGES AND WEATHER CONDITIONS FOUND ANY PLACE ON EARTH, INCLUDING THE PERSIAN GULF.

CHRIS GUNTERSON>> INFORMATION WARFARE IS NOT A RHETORICAL TERM. THE RIGHT INFORMATION IN THE RIGHT CONTEXT IS AS VALUABLE AS BULLETS.

GAY YEE>> CHRIS GUNTERSON IS THE COMMANDING OFFICER.

CHRIS GUNTERSON>> SOMETIMES THE WEATHER OR THE OCEANOGRAPHY CAN BE ACTUALLY A SHOW-STOPPER. OTHER TIMES, IF YOU CAN DO A BETTER JOB OF PREDICTING WHAT THE ATMOSPHERE OR THE OCEAN IS GOING TO BE LIKE, THEN YOU CAN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF KNOWING WHAT THE ENVIRONMENT IS GOING TO BE AND YOU CAN PLACE YOUR SENSORS OR YOUR WEAPONS SYSTEMS IN A LOCATION THAT GIVES YOU AN ADVANTAGE OVER YOUR ADVERSARY.

[FILM CLIP]

GAY YEE>> CAPTAIN GUNTERSON SAYS THE UNITED STATES LEARNED DURING WORLD WAR TWO AND THE INVASION AT NORMANDY WHAT A PIVOTAL ROLE WEATHER PLAYS IN WARFARE. BACK THEN, WAVES OF BOMBERS WOULD GRIND DOWN THE ENEMY BY DROPPING SO-CALLED DUMB BOMBS, SIMPLE AND UNGUIDED, BUT DEADLY ENOUGH TO CAUSE LOTS OF COLLATERAL DAMAGE. NOW BATTLE PLANNERS USE STRATEGIC BOMBING, LASER AND RADAR GUIDED WITH PINPOINT ACCURACY. BUT GUNTERSON SAYS EVEN SMART BOMBS THAT USE ELECTRO-OPTICS STILL MUST SEE THE TARGET.

CHRIS GUNTERSON>> IF YOU HAVE THE WRONG KIND OF WEAPON ON YOUR AIRPLANE AND YOU COME TO THE TARGET AND YOU CAN’T SEE IT, IF YOU CAN’T FIND ANOTHER TARGET, SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO JETTISON THAT ORDNANCE IN ORDER TO LAND BACK ON THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER.

GAY YEE>> GUNTERSON IS HOPEFUL THAT AMERICA’S TECHNOLOGY WILL MEAN FEWER CIVILIAN CASUALTIES AND A QUICKER END TO ANY WAR WE MAY FACE.

CHRIS GUNTERSON>> MY PERSONAL OPINION IS, BOY, IT WOULD BE NICE IF WE DIDN’T HAVE TO GO TO WAR, BUT I’M A MEMBER OF THE ARMED FORCES. I UNDERSTAND THAT WAR IS SOMETIMES NECESSARY. IF YOU’RE GOING TO DO WAR, THE WAY TO DO IT, YOU DON’T PLAY FAIR. YOU ACHIEVE AS GREAT AN ADVANTAGE OVER YOUR ADVERSARY AS YOU CAN AND YOU HIT THEM WITH EVERYTHING YOU’VE GOT IN ORDER TO MAKE THE WAR END QUICKLY AND TO MAKE YOUR POINTS AS SURGICALLY AS POSSIBLE.

GAY YEE>> AND PART OF THAT ADVANTAGE CLEARLY TURNS ON AMERICA’S ABILITY TO ACCURATELY FORECAST THE WEATHER ON THE BATTLEFRONT.

CHRIS GUNTERSON>> OFTEN, ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS CAN ALLOW YOU TO HAVE THAT ASYMMETRIC ADVANTAGE. YOU KNOW, YOU’RE SO MUCH SMARTER ABOUT WHAT’S GOING ON THAT YOU WIN OVER THE BAD GUY WHO ISN’T QUITE AS SMART.

JESS>> ANOTHER HIGH-TECH WEAPON IN AMERICA’S ARSENAL COULD DISABLE MOST OF IRAQ’S ELECTRONIC DEVICES WITH ONE POWERFUL BURST OF ENERGY. IT COULD CRIPPLE THE IRAQI MILITARY, BUT THE PENTAGON MAY BE RELUCTANT TO USE THE WEAPON, SINCE IT ALSO COULD DISRUPT CIVILIAN MEDICAL EQUIPMENT AND CRIPPLE HOSPITALS. SOME SAY IT COULD EVEN STOP PACEMAKERS.

VAL>> MONDAY ON LIFE AND TIMES, ORGANIC PRODUCERS. IT MAY BE GOOD FOR YOU, BUT THE GOVERNMENT’S NEW ORGANIC GUIDELINES MAY BE HURTING SCORES OF CALIFORNIA FARMS.

>> WE USE THE WORD ORGANIC TO GET PEOPLE TO ASK US ABOUT OUR CULTURAL PRACTICES SO WE COULD EXPLAIN THAT WE’RE STEWARDS OF THE EARTH AND WE CARE ABOUT OUR CUSTOMERS. NOW THEY’VE TAKEN THE WORD AWAY FROM US AND I THINK IT’S A TRAVESTY.

JESS>> IF THE UNITED STATES GOES TO WAR WITH IRAQ, THE AMERICAN PUBLIC MAY HAVE A FRONT ROW SEAT TO THE CONFLICT. FIVE HUNDRED JOURNALISTS WILL BE ON THE BATTLEFIELDS IMBEDDED WITH U.S. COMBAT FORCES AND THEY’LL HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY TO COVER THE STORY LIVE AS IT’S HAPPENING.

VAL>> IT’S A MAJOR SHIFT FROM DESERT STORM. NOW THE PENTAGON IS ACTUALLY TRAINING JOURNALISTS HOW TO SURVIVE IN COMBAT, ESPECIALLY IF THEY’RE HIT BY CHEMICAL OR BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS. IN A MOMENT, WE’LL MEET TWO LOS ANGELES JOURNALISTS WHO COULD WIND UP ON THE FRONT LINES, BUT FIRST A BRIEF LOOK AT THE REPORTERS’ COMBAT SCHOOL. HERE’S NEWSHOUR’S TERRENCE SMITH.

[FILM CLIP]

TERRENCE SMITH>> THIS IS THE FOG OF WAR, TWENTY-FIRST CENTURY STYLE. A SIMULATED CHEMICAL ATTACK SENDS REPORTERS SCRAMBLING TO DON THEIR GASMASKS. THESE JOURNALISTS, PREPARING TO ACCOMPANY U.S. UNITS IN ANY MILITARY ACTION IN IRAQ, ARE LEARNING TO PREPARE AND PROTECT THEMSELVES AT QUANTICO MARINE CORPS BASE SOUTH OF WASHINGTON. THE GAS IN A REAL ATTACK WOULD LIKELY BE INVISIBLE AND ODORLESS. SOME 350 REPORTERS AND PHOTOGRAPHERS ARE LEARNING TO COPE WITH IT, GIVEN MILITARY CONCERNS OVER POSSIBLE CHEMICAL OR BIOLOGICAL ATTACKS DURING ANY WAR WITH IRAQ.

JESS>> JOINING US NOW IS GEOFFREY MOHAN, A FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT WITH THE LOS ANGELES TIMES. HE COVERED THE RECENT U.S. MILITARY OPERATIONS IN AFGHANISTAN AND HE HAS GONE THROUGH COMBAT SCHOOL TO GET READY TO COVER A WAR WITH IRAQ. AND JOINING US FROM THE BURBANK BUREAU OF NBC NEWS IS CORRESPONDENT, CHIP REID, REPORTING FOR NIGHTLY NEWS WITH TOM BROKAW AND OTHER NBC PROGRAMS IN THE EVENT OF A WAR. CHIP HAS ALSO GONE THROUGH COMBAT READINESS TRAINING. CHIP, DID YOU FIND IT PARTICULARLY HARROWING?

CHIP REID>> THE TRAINING ACTUALLY WAS A BLAST, I’VE GOT TO TELL YOU. IT WAS LIKE BOY SCOUT CAMP WITHOUT HAVING TO SLEEP IN A TENT AT NIGHT. WE STAYED IN A NEARBY MOTEL. IT WAS A LOT OF DIVING INTO THE MUD FOR COVER AS THEY WERE PRETENDING TO SHOOT AT US, AND ORIENTING BATTLEFIELD FIRST AID WHICH WAS ABSOLUTELY FASCINATING AND IT’S SOMETHING THAT COULD REALLY COME IN HANDY RIGHT HERE IN THE STATES TOO.

THEY TOOK US HOSTAGE AT ONE POINT. THAT WAS THE HARROWING POINT THAT WE DID NOT KNOW IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN AND IT WAS AS REALISTIC AS THEY COULD MAKE IT WITH BLACK SACKS OVER THEIR HEADS AND EVERYTHING ELSE. BUT I WOULD NOT CALL IT HARROWING. I THINK PEOPLE HAD A GOOD TIME, BUT THERE WERE SOME VERY SOBERING MOMENTS WHEN WE WOULD STOP AND THINK, WAIT A MINUTE, WE ARE DOING THIS IN PREPARATION FOR THE POSSIBILITY THAT THIS COULD BE THE REAL THING. BUT MOSTLY I THINK EVERYBODY FELT REALLY GOOD WHILE THEY WERE DOING IT BECAUSE I THINK IT’S GOING TO BE VERY HELPFUL ONCE WE GET OUT THERE.

JESS>> GEOFFREY, WAS THIS FUN FOR YOU? (LAUGHTER)

GEOFFREY MOHAN>> NO. SUMMER CAMP WOULD BE A BAD WAY TO DESCRIBE IT. IT WAS THE COLDEST WEEK THAT THE NORTHEAST HAD AND WE WERE AT FORT DIX. IT WAS ABOUT NEGATIVE EIGHT DEGREES AND THEY, IN FACT, CANCELED THE OVERNIGHT CAMP, SO WE HAD NO CAMPFIRE AND NO MARSHMALLOWS.

JESS>> NO S’MORES? (LAUGHTER)

GEOFFREY MOHAN>> NO.

VAL>> WHAT IS THE MAIN MESSAGE THAT YOU CAME AWAY WITH AFTER YOUR TRAINING? WHAT WAS ONE OF THE KEY LESSONS?

GEOFFREY MOHAN>> I THINK THE KEY LESSON IS SIMILAR TO WHAT CHIP SAID, THAT THIS COULD GET VERY SERIOUS VERY QUICKLY AND THAT WE OUGHT TO BE PREPARED FOR JUST ABOUT EVERY CONTINGENCY, INCLUDING GAS AND BIOLOGICAL WARFARE.

JESS>> CHIP, ARE YOU PERSUADED THAT THE PENTAGON REALLY IS TURNING AN ABOUT-FACE FROM WHAT THEY DID IN THE GULF WAR WHERE YOU WERE SEVERELY RESTRICTED?

CHIP REID>> I WAS NOT THERE, SO THIS WILL BE MY FIRST EXPERIENCE WITH REALLY BEING ON THE BATTLEFIELD. I WAS IN AFGHANISTAN, BUT NOT REALLY IN A COMBAT SITUATION. SO I DON’T REALLY HAVE ANYTHING TO COMPARE IT TO OTHER THAN WHAT I’VE HEARD, BUT I AM NOT TOTALLY CONVINCED. I AM GOING WITH A BIT OF A SKEPTICAL FEELING ABOUT HOW MUCH ACCESS THEY’RE GOING TO GIVE US. I THINK THEY INTEND TO GIVE US ACCESS AND I THINK THE TOP COMMAND REALLY WOULD LIKE TO HAVE US GET THAT ACCESS BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THAT, IF WE SHOW WHAT THE AMERICAN TROOPS GO THROUGH AND WHAT THEY’RE DOING, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL GET A FULL UNDERSTANDING OF THIS WAR. THEY THINK THAT THAT’S IMPORTANT AND WILL BE GOOD.

BUT I’M AFRAID THAT, ONCE WE GET ON THE GROUND, WHAT WE WILL RUN INTO ARE FAIRLY LOW-LEVEL PUBLIC AFFAIRS REPRESENTATIVES WHO ARE SCARED TO DEATH THAT THEY’RE GOING TO ALLOW US TO SHOOT SOMETHING OR PHONE IN SOME INFORMATION BACK HOME THAT GIVES AWAY SOME ASPECT OF A BATTLE PLAN, WHICH CERTAINLY IS NOT ANYTHING WE WOULD INTEND TO DO. BUT I THINK THERE ARE GOING TO BE A LOT OF LOWER-LEVEL PEOPLE WHO ARE ALWAYS GOING TO AIR ON THE SIDE OF SAYING NO RATHER THAN YES, AND IT’S GOING TO BE A DAILY BATTLE.

VAL>> WELL, IN FACT, ISN’T ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU BOTH LEARNED AT THE TRAINING ARE THE PARTICULAR RESTRICTIONS? THERE ARE SOME VERY STRICT RULES. CERTAIN INFORMATION DOES NEED CLEARANCE BEFORE IT GOES OUT. IS THAT RIGHT, GEOFFREY?

GEOFFREY MOHAN>> YEAH, THERE ARE A LOT OF RULES ABOUT WHAT CAN BE REPORTED, INCLUDING NUMBERS OF U.S. TROOPS, SOME ISSUES EVEN REGARDING THE NUMBERS OF TROOPS AND THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF TECHNIQUES USED BY THE ENEMY, FUTURE OPERATIONS, CURRENT OPERATIONS. THE LIST IS SO LONG, YOU BEGIN TO WONDER WHAT ACTUALLY YOU CAN REPORT. THEN YOU’VE GOT TO RELY ON WHETHER YOU CAN USE YOUR COMMUNICATION EQUIPMENT AT THE TIME OR WHETHER THEY’RE GOING TO TELL YOU THAT THAT’S NOT PERMITTED BECAUSE OF SECURITY REASONS. SO THERE ARE A LOT OF CERTAINLY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS.

JESS>> CHIP, YOU’RE GOING TO HAVE SPECIAL PROBLEMS WITH DEALING WITH THE TECHNOLOGY. YOU’LL HAVE VIDEOPHONES WHERE YOU COULD CERTAINLY PRESENT EXACTLY WHAT’S HAPPENING LIVE, BUT THAT USES GLOBAL POSITIONING SATELLITES AND THE ENEMY COULD USE THAT TO TRACE WHERE YOU WERE IN THE ACTION.

CHIP REID>> THAT’S RIGHT, AND THAT’S ONE OF THE THINGS THEY’RE GOING TO ARGUE TO RESTRICT OUR ACCESS. LET ME READ YOU ONE SENTENCE THAT I THINK SUMS UP THIS ENTIRE THING. THIS WAS REAR ADMIRAL STEVE PETRAPOLI IN ONE BRIEFING WITH THE MEDIA. HE SAID, “YOU GUYS WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO GO LIVE 24/7 AND WE WOULD LIKE TO BE ABLE TO CONTROL YOUR TIMING.” THAT IS THE PARADOX. WHAT PEOPLE CALL THIS IS CENSORSHIP BY DELAY. IF THEY DELAY US LONG ENOUGH, THEN BY THE TIME WE CAN GET THE REPORT BACK, IT’S STALE NEWS AND WE’RE NOT GOING TO GET IT ON THE AIR.

I’M NOT SAYING I THINK THEY WOULD DO THAT INTENTIONALLY OTHER THAN TO PROTECT BATTLE PLANS AND THAT KIND OF THING. I DON’T THINK THEY’RE GOING TO INTENTIONALLY KEEP US FROM REPORTING NEWS THAT WE MAY REPORT, BUT SOMETIMES IT’S JUST GOING TO GET DELAYED BY CIRCUMSTANCES AND BY THEM TAKING THE LEAST RISKY COURSE BY SAYING NO WHEN THE ANSWER REALLY SHOULD BE YES IN ORDER TO COVER THEIR BEHINDS.

VAL>> BUT THIS BEGS THE QUESTION, WHY THIS MAJOR CHANGE FROM THE GULF WAR WHEN EVERYTHING WAS SO CONTROLLED, SO RESTRICTED, WHEN ALL WE SAW WAS THAT FUZZY VIDEO OF BOMBS DROPPING DOWN FROM AIRPLANES HIGH UP IN THE AIR? WHY THIS MAJOR CHANGE? ANY IDEA?

CHIP REID>> IF YOU’RE ASKING ME, I THINK THERE ARE STILL A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO DON’T QUITE UNDERSTAND IT. BUT I THINK THAT THEY BELIEVE THAT WHAT WE MISSED IN THE GULF WAR WAS THE POINT OF VIEW OF THE AMERICAN TROOPS. IF PEOPLE WATCH TV AND WHAT THEY SEE EACH DAY IS THE HEROISM AND THE DIFFICULTY THAT THE AMERICAN TROOPS ARE GOING THROUGH IN THIS, THAT THEY WILL IDENTIFY WITH THEM AND THAT THEY WILL SUPPORT THEM IN HUGE PERCENTAGES.

THE RISK, OF COURSE, IS THAT WHAT WE END UP SHOWING ARE A LOT OF CIVILIAN CASUALTIES AND TROOPS WHO ARE DEMORALIZED AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE. BUT THEY ARE CONFIDENT AT THIS POINT, APPARENTLY, THAT THEY’RE NOT GOING TO GET A LOT OF THAT BAD NEWS. IT’S GOING TO BE MOSTLY AMERICAN TROOPS HEROICALLY DOING THEIR JOBS.

JESS>> WOULD YOU AGREE, GEOFFREY?

GEOFFREY MOHAN>> I THINK IT’S LARGELY BECAUSE THEY REALIZE THE FAILURE OF THEIR LAST STRATEGY IN THE FIRST GULF WAR. THAT WAS TO TRY TO KEEP EVERYONE IN A REAR GUARD POSITION IN RIYADH AND TRY TO KEEP THEM AWAY FROM THE BATTLEFIELD. THEY REALIZED THAT SLOWLY THAT STARTED FALLING APART AND THAT THIS TIME THE PRESS WAS NOT GOING TO PUT UP WITH THAT AND WAS JUST GOING TO FREELANCE AND START REPORTING IT ON THEIR OWN.

GIVEN THAT CONTINGENCY, I THINK THEY OPTED, AND PROBABLY RATHER SMARTLY, TO TRY TO CONTROL THE PRESS BY OFFERING POSITIONS IN THESE UNITS ON THE CHANCE THAT MOST OF THE TIME, SINCE WE CAN’T SEE THE BIG PICTURE WITH THESE SMALL UNITS, WHAT WE’LL REPORT ON IS JUST GI JOE AND HOW HE’S DOING AND WHAT HE’S THINKING ABOUT AND WHAT HE THINKS ABOUT HIS FAMILY AT HOME. MOST OF THE STORIES WILL COME OUT EITHER NEUTRAL TO POSITIVE, SO I THINK IT’S PROBABLY A SMART STRATEGY ON THEIR PART. I’M NOT SURE IT WILL WORK OUT EXACTLY THAT WAY.

JESS>> AS A NEWSPAPER REPORTER, YOU’LL BE LESS RESTRICTED THAN A TELEVISION CORRESPONDENT, I WOULD THINK.

GEOFFREY MOHAN>> I’M NOT SO SURE ABOUT THAT, BUT CERTAINLY IN TERMS OF THE TECHNOLOGICAL PROBLEMS INVOLVED WITH TELEVISION, SURE, THERE ARE MANY MORE AVENUES WHERE THEY COULD RESTRICT YOU. IN THE IMMEDIACY OF TELEVISION, THERE CERTAINLY ARE MANY MORE WAYS THAT THEY CAN TINKER WITH TELEVISION. BUT I DON’T DOUBT THAT THEY WILL LOOK VERY CAREFULLY AT WHAT I WRITE AND I DON’T DOUBT THAT THERE WILL BE MANY ARGUMENTS OVER WHAT CAN AND CANNOT BE CENSORED AND HELD BACK.

VAL>> I’M CURIOUS, CHIP. DID YOU VOLUNTEER FOR THIS DUTY? WERE YOU ANXIOUS TO GO OR DID YOU GET PICKED?

CHIP REID>> I DID VOLUNTEER. IT WAS KIND OF A VOLUNTEER IN STEPS. FIRST THEY CAME AROUND AND SAID DO YOU WANT TO DO THE TRAINING? I SAID YES AND THEN THEY DESIGNATED ME TO GO TO KUWAIT. THEN RECENTLY, I JUST DECIDED I DIDN’T WANT TO SPEND SIX OR EIGHT WEEKS SITTING IN THE SHERATON HOTEL IN KUWAIT, SO I SENT TO ONE OF THE SENIORS BACK ON THE EAST COAST AND SAID, HEY, IF YOU’RE LOOKING FOR SOMEBODY TO DO THE PENTAGON TRAINING RATHER THAN JUST THE GENERAL TRAINING, WHICH WE ALL HAVE TO DO, LET ME KNOW. IN FACT, I HAVE NOT DONE THE PENTAGON TRAINING. I DID WHAT IS CALLED THE CENTURION TRAINING. IT’S A BRITISH COMPANY THAT COMES OVER AND TRAINS. BUT I’LL BE GOING WITHOUT THE PENTAGON TRAINING, SO THAT LIST OF RULES THAT YOU ALL WERE TALKING ABOUT, I DON’T KNOW ANY RULES (LAUGHTER). I’M GOING TO HAVE TO LEARN THEM AS I GO ALONG.

JESS>> YOU’LL LEARN (LAUGHTER).

VAL>> YES, YOU WILL. WELL, BEST OF LUCK TO YOU, GEOFFREY MOHAN OF THE LOS ANGELES TIMES. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. AND CHIP REID OF NBC NEWS, THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

GEOFFREY MOHAN>> THANK YOU.

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JESS>> FOR TWENTY-SEVEN YEARS, HOLLYWOOD PRODUCERS HAVE TRIED TO TAKE THE ENORMOUSLY SUCCESSFUL BOB FOSSE PLAY, “CHICAGO”, FROM THE STAGE TO THE SCREEN, BUT MUSICALS ARE FULL OF PITFALLS AND IT TOOK THE TALENTS OF SCREENWRITER, BILL CONDON, TO FINALLY CONVINCE A HOLLYWOOD STUDIO TO TAKE A CHANCE. THAT’S HOW “CHICAGO”, THE MOVIE, CAME TO BE. SO HOW DID CONDON SUCCEED WHERE OTHERS HAD FAILED?

VAL>> WELL, TONIGHT WE’LL PUT THAT QUESTION TO THE MAN HIMSELF. BILL CONDON JOINS US NOW. FIRST, CONGRATULATIONS.

BILL CONDON>> OH, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

JESS>> WAS IT A TOUGH SELL?

BILL CONDON>> NO, NOT REALLY. YOU KNOW, I THINK IT STARTED WITH ROB MARSHALL GOING INTO MIRAMAX. HE’D BEEN INVOLVED IN AN EARLIER INCARNATION AS A CHOREOGRAPHER. THEN WHEN I CAME ON BOARD, I THINK THEY’D HAD SO MANY VERSIONS OF IT THAT THEY KIND OF LEFT US ALONE. YOU KNOW, IT WAS SORT OF LIKE, OH, LET THEM GO UP AND TRY TO FIGURE IT OUT. WE DON’T HAVE MUCH HOPE. SO IT WAS A VERY, VERY PLEASURABLE EXPERIENCE WRITING THE SCRIPT.

VAL>> NOW ANYONE WHO’S SEEN THE MOVIE KNOWS THAT ONE OF THE KEY ELEMENTS OF THIS MOVIE IS THE FACT THAT A LOT OF THE MUSICAL NUMBERS HAPPEN INSIDE THE IMAGINATIONS AND THAT WAS A VERY TRICKY THING TO DO. YET, THAT WAS ESSENTIAL. THAT WAS KEY TO MAKING THIS WORK.

BILL CONDON>> WELL, THE THING IS THAT IT’S PARADOXICAL. BUT THE WAY THAT THIS BECAME CINEMATIC WAS BY REMAINING THEATRICAL BECAUSE IT HAD BEEN INVENTED BY FOSSE AND KANDER AND EBB RIGHT AFTER THEY MADE THE “CABARET” MOVIE. THEY WENT RIGHT FROM THAT TO DOING “CHICAGO” ON STAGE. THEY TOOK THE SAME IDEA, WHICH IS THAT EVERY MUSICAL NUMBER IS A VAUDEVILLE TURN THAT COMMENTS ON THE ACTION. IT DOESN’T INTERRUPT THE ACTION.

I DON’T BREAK OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF A SONG AS I’M TALKING TO YOU (LAUGHTER). SOMEONE SINGS THEIR OWN COMMENTS ON WHAT’S HAPPENING AS WE’RE TALKING, SO THAT WAS THE THING. WHY NOT BE FAITHFUL TO THAT ORIGINAL IDEA? PEOPLE THOUGHT, WELL, YOU’RE MAKING A MOVIE. YOU CAN’T USE THAT STAGE METAPHOR ANYMORE, BUT ACTUALLY, ONCE WE DECIDED TO USE IT, IT BECAME LIBERATING.

JESS>> WE’VE GOT A CLIP THAT ILLUSTRATES THIS. LET’S TAKE A LOOK AT THAT.

BILL CONDON>> OH, GOOD.

[FILM CLIP]

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) NOW THAT INTER-CUTTING BETWEEN THE SONG AND THE PROGRESS OF THE TRIAL, I UNDERSTAND THAT WAS THOROUGHLY THOUGHT OUT AND EVEN PUT INTO THE SCREENPLAY?

BILL CONDON>> OH, ABSOLUTELY. THAT’S A GOOD EXAMPLE BECAUSE, IN THE PLAY, THERE IS NO REAL TRIAL. BUT YOU’VE GOT A MOVIE, YOU’VE GOT RICHARD GERE IN A COURTROOM AND THE AUDIENCE WANTS TO SEE HOW DOES HE GET ROXIE HART OFF? YOU KNOW, AT THE SAME TIME, YOU’RE IN A MUSICAL AND IT WOULD BE DEATH TO STOP AND SUDDENLY HAVE A COURTROOM MOVIE. SO IF YOU LOOK AT THAT LITTLE CLIP, IN THE SPACE OF TWO MINUTES IN THE FIRST VERSE OF THAT NUMBER, YOU SEE THIS WHOLE PRESENTATION OF PHYSICAL EVIDENCE, THE REENACTMENT OF THE CRIME, SOME PEOPLE TESTIFYING, HIM TRICKING, SO YOU GET THE SENSE THAT YOU’RE SEEING A WHOLE TRIAL WHICH YOU DIDN’T DO ON STAGE, BUT YOU’RE ACTUALLY STILL KEEPING THE MUSICAL NUMBER GOING THE WHOLE TIME, AND THAT WAS THE FUN OF THE WRITING OF IT.

JESS>> THERE WERE REPORTS THAT EVERY EDIT WAS SCRIPTED.

BILL CONDON>> PRETTY MUCH, YEAH, YEAH. BECAUSE IN A MUSICAL, EVERYTHING HAS GOT TO BE PREPLANNED BEFORE. EVERYTHING IS PRERECORDED, SO REALLY ONCE YOU GO TO MAKE THE MOVIE, IT’S KIND OF DONE IN SOME WAYS, YES, SO EVERY ONE OF THOSE THINGS WERE THOUGHT OUT.

JESS>> HAD YOU WRITTEN PREVIOUS MUSICALS?

BILL CONDON>> NO. I’D JUST BEEN A HUGE FAN SINCE HIGH SCHOOL. I WENT TO HIGH SCHOOL IN NEW YORK AND WOULD GO DOWN AND SEE MUSICALS AND SNEAK IN FOR FREE TO THE SECOND ACTS OF MUSICALS.

VAL>> WHAT KIND OF MUSICALS DID YOU SEE? THE CLASSICS --

BILL CONDON>> -- OH, YEAH. I SAW “CHICAGO” WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL. I SAW “FOLLIES AND COMPANY” AND ALL THOSE GREAT EARLY STEPHEN SONDHEIM MUSICALS AND FELL IN LOVE WITH IT. YOU KNOW, I’VE ALWAYS BEEN OBSESSED WITH HOW MOVIES GET MADE OF MUSICALS AND HOW THEY GO WRONG SO MANY TIMES, YOU KNOW.

VAL>> NOW THIS PROJECT IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM THE WAY THAT YOU DID. DID YOU DO “GODS AND MONSTERS”?

BILL CONDON>> “GODS AND MONSTERS”, YES.

VAL>> FOR WHICH YOU WON -- DID YOU WIN AN OSCAR FOR THAT? NOMINATED AND WON AN OSCAR?

BILL CONDON>> YES.

VAL>> COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM THIS.

BILL CONDON>> I GUESS IT IS, YEAH, YEAH. I THINK IT’S SORT OF IMPORTANT TO DO WHAT YOU’RE INTERESTED IN. YOU KNOW, AFTER “GODS AND MONSTERS”, I GOT SO MANY SUBMISSIONS OF -- I NEVER KNEW THERE WERE SO MANY STORIES ABOUT OLDER GAY MEN AND YOUNGER STRAIGHT MEN (LAUGHTER). THAT WAS MY GENRE, YOU KNOW. YOU KNOW, YOU SORT OF ALWAYS LIKE TO THROW A CURVE AND, YOU KNOW, GO AFTER SOMETHING NEW. I DO LIKE TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT EACH TIME.

JESS>> THE QUESTION EVERYBODY ASKS WITH THE SUCCESS OF “CHICAGO” IN PARTICULAR, IS THE MOVIE MUSICAL COMING BACK?

BILL CONDON>> OH, I HOPE SO. IT WOULD BE NICE. YOU KNOW, IT’S BEEN HARD FOR EACH OF THESE MOVIES BECAUSE THEY CARRIED THE BURDEN OF THE WORLD ON THEIR SHOULDERS. IF A MUSICAL BOMBS, THEN THAT’S IT FOR FIVE YEARS. BUT WE HAVE THAT LUCKY THING OF FOLLOWING “MOULIN ROUGE” WHICH WAS SUCCESSFUL. THE FACT THAT PEOPLE HAVE GONE TO THIS MOVIE, SO MAYBE IT FEELS LIKE AT LEAST A COUPLE MORE WILL GET MADE AND IT WOULD BE GREAT TO SEE. YOU KNOW, I’VE GONE TO SEE IT WITH AN AUDIENCE SO MANY TIMES, AND PEOPLE APPLAUD AS THOUGH THE ACTORS WERE THERE. I THINK IT’S ANOTHER WAY OF BEING IN AN ACTION MOVIE AND GETTING EXCITED WITH WHAT’S HAPPENING ON SCREEN, SO IT WOULD BE NICE TO SEE MORE OF THEM.

VAL>> OF COURSE, WE TALK ABOUT THE MUSICAL, BUT YOU DID WRITE DIALOGUE FOR THIS AND WE HAVE A CLIP OF THAT BECAUSE DIALOGUE IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS MUSIC. WE’RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT A SCENE OF DIALOGUE FROM “CHICAGO”.

BILL CONDON>> OH, GOOD, GOOD.

[FILM CLIP]

JESS>> (LAUGHTER) SUBTLE AND UNDERPLAYED?

BILL CONDON>> (LAUGHTER) EXACTLY. HOW FUN IS RICHARD GERE, THOUGH?

JESS>> LEONARD BERNSTEIN, WHO WILL BE A GUEST ON A PROGRAM COMING UP SOON HERE ON LIFE AND TIMES, COMMENTED ON “CHICAGO”. HE THOUGHT IT WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY MOVIE AND PARTICULARLY LIKED THE TECHNIQUES EMPLOYED TO GET IT.

BILL CONDON>> OH, THAT’S WONDERFUL. THAT’S THRILLING BECAUSE HE’S DONE MUSICALS TOO.

JESS>> HE HAS, INDEED.

VAL>> NOW, MUSICALS ARE UNIQUE IN THEIR OWN SENSE. NEVERTHELESS, DID YOU LEARN SOMETHING THAT YOU WILL APPLY TO YOUR NEXT NON-MUSICAL PROJECT?

BILL CONDON>> ABSOLUTELY, SO MUCH. AND ROB, IT WAS LIKE GOING TO MUSICAL UNIVERSITY HIM BECAUSE, IF YOU LOOK AT MOVIES THAT YOU’VE LOVED, SO MANY OF THEM ARE MADE BY CHOREOGRAPHERS. “SINGING IN THE RAIN”, STANLEY DONEN HAD BEEN A CHOREOGRAPHER AND OBVIOUSLY GENE KELLY. JEROME ROBBINS DOING “WEST SIDE STORY” AND ALL THE BOB FOSSE MOVIES, HERB ROSS WITH “PENNIES FROM HEAVEN”.

IT’S BEEN A LONG TIME SINCE A BROADWAY CHOREOGRAPHER HAS BEEN INTERESTED IN MAKING MOVIES. BUT BECAUSE HE WORKED WITH JEROME ROBBINS AND MICHAEL BENNETT AND HAROLD PRINCE RIGHT BACK TO THE TRADITION OF THE GOLDEN AGE, HE TAUGHT ME SO MUCH ABOUT MUSICALS AND JUST THE WAY THEY WORK FROM THE INSIDE AND ALSO JUST BASIC THINGS LIKE PACE, PACE, PACE, YOU KNOW? “CHICAGO” TAKES OFF LIKE A ROCKET AND NEVER STOPS AND I THINK THAT’S A GOOD LESSON FOR ANY MOVIE, YOU KNOW?

JESS>> CONGRATULATIONS.

BILL CONDON>> OH, THANK YOU.

VAL>> CONGRATULATIONS. GOOD LUCK ON OSCAR NIGHT, ALTHOUGH I DON’T THINK YOU’LL NEED IT. BILL CONDON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

BILL CONDON>> THANK YOU.

VAL>> A REMINDER THAT YOU CAN GET TRANSCRIPTS OR LISTEN TO RECENT PROGRAMS OF LIFE AND TIMES BY GOING TO OUR WEBSITE AT KCET.ORG.

JESS>> AND THAT’S TONIGHT’S BROADCAST. NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT.

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