9/25/01

LC010925

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS>> PRESIDENT BUSH SAYS WE'RE AT WAR, BUT ON SOME COLLEGE CAMPUSES, A GROWING CHORUS IS CALLING FOR PEACE.

GAY YEE>> DECADES AFTER STUDENTS PROTESTED THE VIETNAM WAR, THE NEW ISSUE IS HOW TO RESPOND TO THE TERRORIST ATTACKS IN NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON, D.C.

JENNIFER CARON>> WE BELIEVE THAT WE CAN BRING TO THIS SITUATION WHAT WE BRING TO SCIENCE REGULARLY. WE BRING A VERY REASONED AND RATIONAL APPROACH TO THE THINGS THAT WE DO.

VAL>> WILL THE PENDULUM SWING TOO FAR IN THE CRACKDOWN ON TERRORISM? TONIGHT WE'LL TALK WITH A LEGAL SCHOLAR ABOUT THE SACRIFICES AMERICANS MAY HAVE TO MAKE FOR SECURITY.

JESS>> THE PHRASE "ECCENTRIC BILLIONAIRE" MIGHT HAVE BEEN COINED JUST TO DESCRIBE HOWARD HUGHES, BUT HOW DID HUGHES GET THAT WAY? A NEW BIOGRAPHY PIECES TOGETHER THE REAL STORY OF THIS RECORD-SETTING PILOT, INVENTOR, FILMMAKER AND PLAYBOY. PATT MORRISON TALKS WITH THE AUTHOR OF "HUGHES".

VAL>> THESE STORIES STRAIGHT AHEAD ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION
WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY FOUNDATION
UNDERWRITING THE SPANISH LANGUAGE TRANSLATION OF LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW.

THE LAST TIME AMERICA WAS CAUGHT UP IN A PEACE MOVEMENT, THE COUNTRY WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF A BLOODY BUT UNDECLARED WAR IN VIETNAM.

VAL>> TODAY'S COLLEGE STUDENTS WEREN'T EVEN BORN BACK THEN, BUT AS AMERICA MOVES TOWARD WHAT COULD BE A PROLONGED WAR ON TERRORISM, MANY STUDENTS ARE QUESTIONING AUTHORITY JUST AS THEIR PARENTS DID. TONIGHT GAY YEE LOOKS AT ONE OF THE PLACES THIS NEW PEACE MOVEMENT IS EMERGING, CAL TECH UNIVERSITY IN PASADENA.

GAY>> THE POSTERS, POEMS AND ARGUMENTS FOR PEACE DOT THE STUDENT UNION WALLS AT CAL TECH IN PASADENA, SIGNS OF THE TIMES AS A NEW GENERATION OF STUDENT ACTIVISTS CALLS FOR NON-VIOLENCE. DECADES AFTER STUDENTS PROTESTED THE VIETNAM WAR, THE NEW ISSUE IS HOW TO RESPOND TO THE TERRORIST ATTACKS IN NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON, D.C.

JENNIFER CARON>> WE BELIEVE THAT WE CAN BRING TO THIS SITUATION WHAT WE BRING TO SCIENCE REGULARLY. WE BRING A VERY REASONED AND RATIONAL APPROACH TO THE THINGS THAT WE DO AND WE'RE ASKING OUR GOVERNMENT TO DO THE SAME IN THIS CASE.

GAY>> JENNIFER CARON IS THE FOUNDER OF THE CAL TECH PEACEFUL JUSTICE COALITION. THE ORGANIZATION IS BARELY A WEEK OLD. AS AN UNDERGRADUATE IN SCIENCE ETHICS, SHE NEVER IMAGINED HERSELF AS AN ANTI-WAR ACTIVIST. OVER THE SUMMER, CARON WORKED AT A SUPER FUND SITE AND WITNESSED THE RAVAGES OF PAST WAR. A FUTURE WAR, SHE SAYS, COULD BE FAR WORSE.

JENNIFER CARON>> WE KNOW THAT NUCLEAR WEAPONS, THAT BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS, THAT CHEMICAL WEAPONS ARE COMMON IN THE WORLD TODAY AND THEY WEREN'T IN YEARS PREVIOUS, IN WARS PREVIOUS, SO WE DON'T KNOW WHAT A WAR WOULD MEAN AT THIS POINT.

GAY>> THE STREAM OF HORRIFIC IMAGES FROM LOWER MANHATTAN HAS INDEED TORN AT THE HEARTS OF AMERICANS. TALK OF REVENGE AND A WAR ON TERRORISM CAN BE HEARD ALMOST EVERYWHERE. BUT STUDENTS AT CAL TECH AND MORE THAN 100 OTHER COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES RALLIED LAST THURSDAY FOR WHAT THEY CALL PEACEFUL JUSTICE.

TEHSHIK YOON>> LIKE THEM, WE ALSO FEEL IMMENSE GRIEF AND IMMENSE ANGER TOWARDS THE PEOPLE WHO DID THIS TO US. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE ALSO RECOGNIZE THAT OUR ACTING RETALIATORILY WITH VIOLENCE WILL ONLY BEGET MORE VIOLENCE.

GAY>> TEHSHIK YOON HELPED TO AUTHOR THIS JOINT PETITION WITH STUDENTS AT MIT.

TEHSHIK YOON>> I DON'T THINK THAT ANY OF US WOULD SAY THAT WE WANT TO ROLL OVER. RATHER, I THINK THAT IT'S ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL THAT WE MAKE OUR PRIMARY OBJECTIVE TO FIND THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS AND BRING THEM TO JUSTICE. BUT WE NEED TO DO THAT IN SUCH A WAY THAT WE DON'T KILL CIVILIANS WHO ARE IN THE WAY.

JUSTIN BUNN>> YEAH, THAT'S A VALID POINT OF VIEW, BUT I THINK THAT WHEN YOU HAVE A FANATIC LIKE THIS WHO WILL CONTINUE TO TAKE INNOCENT LIVES IF YOU DON'T TAKE HIM OUT OF THE PICTURE, YOU REALLY HAVE TO ACT, YOU HAVE TO USE SOME FORCE. IF THEY CAN CAPTURE HIM AND PUT HIM IN JAIL, ALL THE BETTER, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE POSSIBLE.

GAY>> IT'S NOT HARD TO FIND PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE OSAMA BIN LADEN BELONGS IN THE CROSSHAIRS OF RETALIATION.

CHRISTINA COHEN>> OBVIOUSLY, YOU DON'T WANT TO RETALIATE WITH, YOU KNOW, KILLING A WHOLE BUNCH OF INNOCENT CIVILIANS. OTHERWISE, WE'RE NO BETTER THAN THEY ARE. BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, LETTING TERRORISTS GO AND NOT PURSUING THEM IS WRONG AS WELL. YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO TAKE CARE OF THEM.

GAY>> BUT EXACTLY HOW? ASSISTANT PROFESSOR, ERIK WINFREE, IS OFTEN A MENTOR THAT INSPIRES STUDENTS. HE SAYS THIS TIME IT WAS THE STUDENTS THAT INSPIRED HIM.

ERIK WINFREE>> AMERICA, AS THE STRONGEST SUPER POWER OF THE WORLD, NEEDS TO HELP STRENGTHEN THAT AND EMPOWER THAT RATHER THAN ACTING IN WAYS THAT ARE LARGELY RETALIATORY.

GAY>> AS ONE MAN PUT IT, THERE HAS TO BE CONCERN HERE THAT PEOPLE ARE ACTING IN ANGER RATHER THAN ACTING IN PEOPLES' BEST INTERESTS. THE TRADE CENTER CARNAGE HAS EVEN SPARKED SOME LONG-TIME PEACENIKS TO WAVE AN AMERICAN FLAG. IN AN L.A. TIMES EDITORIAL, FORMER VIETNAM WAR PROTESTER, MERRILL COLETTE, OF BERKELEY WROTE THAT OSAMA BIN LADEN'S VIOLENT BRAND OF RELIGIOUS FANATICISM WANTS ONLY TO CRUMBLE US LIKE THE TWIN TOWERS. THERE CAN BE NO PARIS PEACE TALKS, SAID COLETTE. BUT THESE STUDENTS SAY RESPONDING TO THE BIGGEST ATTACK AGAINST AMERICA WITH MORE VIOLENCE ISN'T THE ANSWER EITHER.

KI-WON YOON>> THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JUSTICE AND REVENGE. I FEEL THAT JUSTICE IS THERE TO SHOW WHAT'S RIGHT AND SHOW WHAT'S WRONG. IT'S THERE TO UPHOLD THE PRINCIPLES THAT WE HOLD DEAR. REVENGE DOES NOT ACCOMPLISH THOSE THINGS.

GAY>> IN PASADENA, GAY YEE FOR LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

JESS>> TO GIVE US A LITTLE PERSPECTIVE ON WHAT WE'RE SEEING ON THE CAMPUSES, WE'VE ASKED SHERRY BEBITCH JEFFE, A POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR AND SCHOLAR AT USC, TO JOIN US.

YOU SAW THOSE STUDENTS THERE. THEY'RE CERTAINLY YOUNG. ARE THEY ALSO NAÏVE?

SHERRY BEBITCH JEFFE>> THEY GET YOUNGER EVERY YEAR, JESS. (LAUGHTER) DEFINE WHAT YOU MEAN BY NAÏVE. I'M NOT SURE NAÏVE IS WHAT THEY ARE. I THINK THAT THEY ARE NOT EXPERIENCED IN A WAR. THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ON THIS EARTH, QUITE FRANKLY. VIETNAM IS A CHAPTER IN THE HISTORY BOOKS FOR THEM. BUT THEY APPEAR TO ME TO BE THOUGHTFUL, TO BE CAUTIOUS. I'M REALLY SOMEWHAT PROUD OF THE WAY THIS MOVEMENT IS DEVELOPING. SOMETIMES I WORRY, AND I'VE SEEN THIS, THAT OUR YOUNG PEOPLE SORT OF GROOVE ON THE LIFE THAT WE LIVED IN THE SIXTIES AND THE SEVENTIES FOR NO GOOD REASON, AND ACT OUT WHAT WE WERE AND WHAT WE DID. 

JESS>> YOU DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING HERE?

SHERRY BEBITCH JEFFE>> I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE CASE THIS TIME, EXACTLY. I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE CASE THIS TIME.

VAL>> SO WHAT IS THE SAME AND WHAT IS DIFFERENT, SAY, ABOUT THE PROTESTERS FROM VIETNAM AND THESE THAT ARE EMERGING?

SHERRY BEBITCH JEFFE>> VAL, I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT IT AND I GO BACK TO WATCHING WELL BEFORE VIETNAM. I GO BACK TO GETTING ENGAGED IN CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENTS WHEN I WAS A VERY YOUNG PRECOCIOUS COLLEGE FRESHMAN. IT APPEARS TO ME THAT WHAT WE ARE SEEING NOW MIRRORS WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THE WHOLE INSTITUTION OF HIGHER EDUCATION. IT IS MORE DIVERSE. IT IS MORE MULTI-CULTURAL, IF YOU WILL. THE VOICES THAT WE ARE HEARING ARE MUSLIM VOICES, ARE CHRISTIAN VOICES, ARE WHITE VOICES, ARE ASIAN VOICES.

VAL>> WILL THAT MAKE IT MORE EFFECTIVE?

SHERRY BEBITCH JEFFE>> I THINK IT WILL. I DO THINK IT WILL. I THINK ANY TIME YOU BUILD COALITIONS, WHETHER IT'S AS COLIN POWELL IS BUILDING COALITIONS OR AS THE ANTI-WAR -- AND I DON'T WANT TO USE THE WORD "PROTESTERS" -- THOSE WHO ARE QUESTIONING THE ANTI-WAR MOVEMENT, IT CAN ONLY MAKE THAT MOVEMENT STRONGER. IT MAKES IT EASIER TO FACILITATE COMMUNICATIONS.

THE OTHER DIFFERENCE? AND I'M REALLY BEGINNING TO LOOK AT THIS. WE DIDN'T HAVE THE INTERNET. AND I DON'T KNOW YET QUITE WHAT THAT MEANS. WE SAW THE POWER OF THE INTERNET IN THE ANTI-GLOBALIZATION PROTESTS AND I'M WONDERING HOW THE INTERNET IS GOING TO AFFECT THIS MOVEMENT. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE WON'T SEE THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF STUDENTS OUT THERE IN SPRAWL HALL, OUT THERE ON THE QUAD, BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO. THEY CAN COMMUNICATE OVER THE NET. IT DOES MEAN THAT THE ORGANIZATION WILL BE BETTER, FASTER, QUICKER, WIDER.

JESS>> DO YOU SEE A COALITION BETWEEN THE ANTI-GLOBALIZATION MOVEMENT AND THIS PEACE MOVEMENT?

SHERRY BEBITCH JEFFE>> THERE APPARENTLY IS A CONNECTION NOW AND, IN FACT, THE DEMONSTRATIONS THAT WERE PLANNED FOR THE NEXT MEETING OF THE WORLD BANK AND THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND, IN TERMS OF ANTI-GLOBALIZATION AND THE FUND, THE FOCUS HAS BEEN CHANGED TO AN ANTI-WAR FOCUS. THE QUESTION REMAINS WHETHER OR NOT THE CROWDS THAT WE SAW EARLIER IN SEATTLE AND IN WASHINGTON WILL BE REPLICATED WITH THIS SHIFT IN EMPHASIS.

VAL>> WELL, I KNOW THE INTERNET IS ALREADY PLAYING A PART BECAUSE THE TEN CAMPUSES THAT ARE ACTIVE IN THIS ARE COMMUNICATING THERE AND PETITIONS CIRCULATE INCREDIBLY FAST ON THE INTERNET. BUT I HAVE A QUESTION. COULD THIS BE DIFFERENT BECAUSE THIS IS NOT VIETNAM, THIS IS NOT AN AMBIGUOUS, DIFFICULT, CONTROVERSIAL WAR? THIS IS MORE LIKE PEARL HARBOR?

SHERRY BEBITCH JEFFE>> OH, I'M -- NO OFFENSE, I'M SO TIRED OF THE COMPARISONS OF WHAT WE ARE GOING THROUGH NOW TO PEARL HARBOR. I DON'T SEE IT --

VAL>> -- BUT I'M SAYING IT'S NOT AS CONTROVERSIAL.

SHERRY BEBITCH JEFFE>> I DON'T SEE IT. WE DON'T HAVE A TRULY IDENTIFIABLE ENEMY. WE HAVE A FACE TO THE ENEMY AND IT IS BIN LADEN'S FACE, BUT NONETHELESS, I THINK IT IS DIFFERENT FROM VIETNAM IN THE SENSE THAT THIS IS A DIFFERENT GENERATION OF STUDENTS. I THINK THIS IS NOT FLOWER POWER. THIS IS A GROUP OF STUDENTS WHO THINK VERY LONG AND VERY HARD ABOUT THE PRACTICAL SIDE OF LIFE.

JESS>> BUT DO YOU REALLY THINK THEY'LL BE ABLE TO MOBILIZE PUBLIC OPINION TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY WERE ABLE TO DO IN THE VIETNAM PERIOD BECAUSE OF THE SAVAGERY THAT WE SAW IN NEW YORK?

SHERRY BEBITCH JEFFE>> WELL, I THINK PUBLIC OPINION IS MOBILIZED. THAT'S ONE OF THE DIFFERENCES RIGHT THERE. I MEAN, THERE IS NO NEED TO PRE-RALLY THE RALLY. WE'RE PRE-RALLIED. THERE IS INDIGNATION, THERE IS ANGER, THERE IS ALL OF THIS --

JESS>> -- BUT NOT TOWARD PEACE.

SHERRY BEBITCH JEFFE>> BUT TO THE VIOLENCE AGAINST THE VIOLENT. I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION IS, IT DEPENDS AS IT DID QUITE A BIT IN VIETNAM ON THE ROLE OF THE MEDIA. I HAVE THE THEORY THAT IT WASN'T PUBLIC OPINION THAT MOBILIZED THE MEDIA IN VIETNAM. IT WAS THE MEDIA WHICH HELPED MOBILIZE PUBLIC OPINION WHEN IT BROUGHT BACK PICTURES OF THE WAR WHICH WERE CONTRADICTING WHAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS TELLING US. THAT, I THINK, WILL DEPEND ON HOW THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION ALLOWS THE MEDIA TO COVER THE WAR AND IT SOUNDS LIKE IT'S NOT GOING TO BE AS FREE AS IT WAS IN VIETNAM.

VAL>> SHERRY BEBITCH JEFFE, ALWAYS INTERESTING TO HAVE YOU ON. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING FROM USC.

SHERRY BEBITCH JEFFE>> MY PLEASURE.

VAL>> TOMORROW WE LOOK AT HOW THE CRACKDOWN ON TERRORISM IS PUSHING LOCAL FLIGHT SCHOOLS TOWARD BANKRUPTCY. SOME SAY THEY'RE BEING TREATED LIKE TRAINING CAMPS FOR TERRORISTS.

AND LATER TONIGHT, PATT MORRISON TALKS WITH A BIOGRAPHER WHO'S WRITTEN THE UNTOLD STORY OF HOWARD HUGHES.

JESS>> IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING THAT OUR WORLD HAS CHANGED SINCE THE SEPTEMBER 11 TERRORIST ATTACKS. THE RACIAL PROFILING? CIVIL LIBERTARIANS ONCE CALLED IT THE DARK SECRET OF LAW ENFORCEMENT, SINGLING SOMEONE OUT BECAUSE OF THEIR ETHNICITY. WILL THAT BE A CHANGE?

VAL>> BUT NOW IN THE WAKE OF AMERICA'S NEW PUSH FOR SECURITY, SOME OFFICIALS SAY RACIAL PROFILING IS A NECESSARY TOOL FOR CATCHING POTENTIAL TERRORISTS. AND THAT'S NOT THE ONLY SACRIFICE SOME AMERICANS SEEM WILLING TO MAKE. JOINING US NOW IS ERWIN CHEMERINSKY. HE'S LAW PROFESSOR AT USC AND AN EXPERT ON CIVIL LIBERTIES. WELCOME TO LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

ERWIN CHEMERINSKY>> IT'S A PLEASURE.

VAL>> RACIAL PROFILING. IS IT, IN THIS CASE, A LEGITIMATE TOOL?

ERWIN CHEMERINSKY>> ABSOLUTELY NOT. IT IS ALWAYS WRONG TO SUSPECT A PERSON SOLELY BECAUSE OF RACE. TIMOTHY MCVEIGH AND THE UNABOMBER WERE WHITE, BUT WE DIDN'T SEE RACIAL PROFILING OR SUSPICION OF WHITE PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THAT. RACE CAN NEVER BE THE ONLY FACTOR. THAT'S NOT TO SAY THAT IT CAN'T BE ONE FACTOR AMONG MANY WHEN IT'S RELEVANT, BUT RACIAL PROFILING IS SAYING THE ONLY REASON A PERSON IS GOING TO BE SUSPECTED IS BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF HIS SKIN OR BECAUSE OF HIS ETHNICITY.

VAL>> BUT DO YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE A FACTOR? FOR EXAMPLE, AT LEAST A BEGINNING FACTOR FOR LOOKING AT, SAY, AIRLINE PASSENGERS?

ERWIN CHEMERINSKY>> IT CAN BE ONE OF MANY FACTORS.

VAL>> OKAY.

ERWIN CHEMERINSKY>> NO ONE CAN DENY THAT THESE TERRORISTS WERE ARAB-AMERICANS. SO IF WE WERE LOOKING AT ARAB-AMERICANS FROM A COUPLE OF SPECIFIC COUNTRIES WHO ARE NOW BETWEEN A SPECIFIC AGE GROUP, THEN IT'S PERMISSIBLE. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT RACIAL PROFILING IS ABOUT. RACIAL PROFILING IS WHEN PEOPLE ARE BEING STOPPED, BEING SUSPECTED, JUST BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN. WHEN I TEACH CONSTITUTIONAL LAW, I ALWAYS HAVE AFRICAN-AMERICAN MALE STUDENTS TELL ME OF BEING STOPPED BY POLICE OFFICERS FOR NOTHING BUT DRIVING WHILE BLACK. THAT'S RACIAL PROFILING. IT WAS WRONG BEFORE SEPTEMBER 11 AND IT'S JUST AS WRONG TODAY.

JESS>> THE WHOLE AREA OF CIVIL LIBERTIES IS A FIELD OF YOURS. IS IT YOUR JUDGMENT THAT WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO SACRIFICE SOME OF OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES?

ERWIN CHEMERINSKY>> WELL, I THINK IT'S TOO SIMPLISTIC TO SAY THAT WE'RE NOT GOING TO HAVE TO SACRIFICE ANY OR THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SACRIFICE A LOT OF CIVIL LIBERTIES. MY OBJECTION IS THAT PEOPLE WERE TOO QUICK TO COME OUT AND SAY WE'VE GOT TO GIVE UP FREEDOM AND TOO QUICK TO SAY WE'RE NOT GOING TO GIVE UP ANY FREEDOM. I THINK THE QUESTION WE ALWAYS HAVE TO ASK IS, WHAT FREEDOM SHOULD WE SACRIFICE IN ORDER TO GET WHAT GAINS?

JESS>> AND FOR HOW LONG?

ERWIN CHEMERINSKY>> THAT'S RIGHT.

VAL>> AND LET'S LOOK PRECISELY AT SOME OF THOSE FREEDOMS, OR SOME OF THE RESTRICTIONS, THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IS PROPOSING IN THE FIGHT AGAINST TERRORISM. THINGS SUCH AS DETAINING NON-CITIZENS INDEFINITELY WITHOUT CHARGING THEM, EASING RESTRICTIONS ON WIRETAPPING, EXPANDING ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE AND IMPROVING THE WAY THAT THE GOVERNMENT INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES SHARE DATA. ARE THOSE ALL ACCEPTABLE, REASONABLE CHANGES?

ERWIN CHEMERINSKY>> ABSOLUTELY NOT --

JESS>> -- ARE ANY OF THEM?

ERWIN CHEMERINSKY>> SOME OF THEM ARE. BETTER SHARING OF INFORMATION AMONG INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES IS UNOBJECTIONABLE. 

VAL>> OKAY.

ERWIN CHEMERINSKY>> WHAT YOU'VE GOT THERE IS EVERY BAD LAW ENFORCEMENT PROPOSAL FOR DECADES THAT'S BEEN REJECTED AS NOW BEING DUSTED OFF. AND LAW ENFORCEMENT POWER FOR GREATER SURVEILLANCE. TALK ABOUT SOME OF THEM. INDEFINITE DETENTION WITHOUT BEING CHARGED. THAT VIOLATES THE CONSTITUTION. IF THE GOVERNMENT HAS PROBABLE CAUSE TO ARREST ANY PERSON, IT CAN DO SO. IF YOU'RE SURE THAT THE PERSON IS SO DANGEROUS THAT HE OR SHE SHOULDN'T BE RELEASED, THEY CAN HOLD THE PERSON INDEFINITELY, BUT THE GOVERNMENT CAN'T HOLD THE PERSON WITHOUT CHARGING HIM.

VAL>> WHAT IF, FOR EXAMPLE, WE'RE HOLDING IMMIGRANTS NOW, MANY OF THEM THINK THEY MIGHT HAVE SOME CONNECTION WITH TERRORISM, BUT THEY DON'T HAVE THOSE CHARGES, SO THEY'RE HOLDING THEM ON IMMIGRATION VIOLATIONS. IS THAT LEGITIMATE?

ERWIN CHEMERINSKY>> IF THERE ARE IMMIGRATION VIOLATIONS, THEN IT'S COMPLETELY LEGITIMATE TO HOLD THEM. BUT IF THEY'RE BEING HELD WITHOUT IMMIGRATION VIOLATIONS AND WITHOUT BEING CHARGED, THAT'S BLATANTLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL. THERE IS NO ESCAPE CLAUSE FOR THE CONSTITUTION. THE POWERS FOR GREATER WIRETAPPING ARE UNDESIRABLE AND THEY WON'T GIVE US GREATER SECURITY.

WE'VE ALL HEARD THAT WHAT ATTORNEY GENERAL JOHN ASHCROFT WANTS IS ROVING WIRETAPS. IT WOULD BE DIRECTED NOT AT A SPECIFIC PHONE, BUT AT A PERSON. IMAGINE THERE'S A ROVING WIRETAP FOR ERWIN CHEMERINSKY. THE ONLY WAY FOR THE POLICE TO KNOW IF I WAS ON A PHONE IS TO LISTEN IN TO ALL THE CONVERSATIONS. WELL, THEY COULD LISTEN IN TO ALL THE PHONES IN THE BUILDING WHERE I WORK, ALL THE PHONES IN THE BUILDINGS WHERE I SHOP, ALL THE PLACES --

VAL>> -- YOUR CELL PHONE.

ERWIN CHEMERINSKY>> MY CELL PHONE, THE CELL PHONES OF ALL MY FRIENDS, THE HOUSES OF ALL MY FRIENDS. IT WOULD BE ENORMOUS FOR YOU TO GET ENOUGH OF THESE ROVING WIRETAP WARRANTS AND IT'S NOT NECESSARY. IF A PERSON IS NOW SUBJECT TO A WIRETAP WARRANT AND THE POLICE DISCOVER THE PERSON GETS A NEW PHONE, THEY CAN IMMEDIATELY GO TO THE COURT, EVEN BY TELEPHONE, AND GET PERMISSION TO GET THE ADDITIONAL PHONE ADDED IN. SO WE'RE GIVING UP BASIC FREEDOMS HERE, BUT WE'RE NOT GAINING ANYTHING IN THE FIGHT AGAINST TERRORISM. THAT'S WHAT I OBJECT TO.

JESS>> ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT THERE MIGHT ALSO BE RESTRICTIONS ON THE FREE PRESS?

ERWIN CHEMERINSKY>> I THINK THE RESTRICTIONS WE'RE LIKELY TO SEE WILL BE INDIRECT RATHER THAN DIRECT. I DON'T EXPECT THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO PUNISH THE PRESS IN COURT --

JESS>> -- JUST WITHHOLD INFORMATION.

ERWIN CHEMERINSKY>> THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE, AND I THINK WE'RE ALREADY SEEING IT. IT USED TO BE THAT THE PRESS WAS ABLE TO COVER THE WAR RIGHT ON THE BATTLEFIELD. THAT WAS TRUE IN WORLD WAR I, WORLD WAR II AND THE VIETNAM WAR. THE MILITARY BECAME CONCERNED THAT WHAT WAS SHOWN ON TELEVISION TURNED PUBLIC OPINION AGAINST THE WAR, SO THEY KEPT THE PRESS AWAY IN THE PERSIAN GULF WAR AND NOW THEY WANT TO KEEP THE PRESS EVEN MORE AWAY. I WORRY IN THAT WAY THAT THE PEOPLE WON'T KNOW AND WON'T HAVE THE ABILITY THEN TO CHECK THEIR GOVERNMENT.

VAL>> PROFESSOR ERWIN CHEMERINSKY, PROFESSOR OF LAW AT USC, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR STOPPING BY AND SHARING YOUR THOUGHTS AND EXPERTISE.

ERWIN CHEMERINSKY>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

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JESS>> YOU MAY THINK YOU KNOW ALL ABOUT HIM, BUT AS IT TURNS OUT, HOWARD HUGHES MIGHT HAVE BEEN EVEN DARKER AND MORE ECCENTRIC THAN MOST OF US IMAGINED. A NEW BIOGRAPHY ON HUGHES DRAWS ON PRIVATE DIARIES AND DECLASSIFIED FBI FILES. PATT MORRISON TALKS WITH THE AUTHOR, RICHARD HACK, ON TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

PATT>> RICHARD HACK, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US ON LIFE AND TIMES.

RICHARD HACK>> PATT, THANKS.

PATT>> THIS IS A BOOK ABOUT HOWARD HUGHES WHO LEFT NO STONE OF AMERICAN LIFE UNTURNED. HE WAS EVERYWHERE.

RICHARD HACK>> INTO EVERYTHING, ABSOLUTELY. WE HAVE A MAN WHO WAS NOT ONLY AMERICA'S FIRST BILLIONAIRE, BUT HE WAS A RECORD-SETTING AVIATOR, HE WAS A LEGENDARY FILM PRODUCER, HE CERTAINLY WAS THE BEST WOMANIZER THAT AMERICA HAS EVER KNOWN OR SEEN. PLUS HE REINVENTED LAS VEGAS SINGLE-HANDEDLY.

PATT>> AND MOREOVER, HE DABBLED IN POLITICS IN A SINISTER FASHION. HE MADE DEALS WITH THE MOB IN VEGAS.

RICHARD HACK>> HE DID, AND HE TRIED TO BUY ANYBODY HE COULD. HE SAID THERE WAS NEVER A MAN ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH HE COULD NOT BUY ONE WAY OR AN ANOTHER.

PATT>> HOW DID YOU GET INTO THE IDEA OF DOING HOWARD HUGHES AND HOW, MOREOVER, DID YOU GET THE PRIVATE DIARIES, THE MEMOS AND THE LETTERS THAT WERE CLEARLY MADE AVAILABLE TO YOU FOR THIS?

RICHARD HACK>> WELL, WHAT HAPPENED WAS, I'VE ALWAYS BEEN INTERESTED IN HUGHES, AS I THINK MOST PEOPLE ARE.

PATT>> BEYOND THE INCH-LONG FINGERNAILS AND THE WEIRD HAIR --

RICHARD HACK>> -- RIGHT, EXACTLY. THERE IS MUCH MORE OF A STORY THERE. FORTUNATELY FOR ME, HE DIED WITHOUT A WILL, SO THE STATES OF CALIFORNIA, NEVADA AND TEXAS HAD A TEN-YEAR-LONG PROBATE HEARING. DURING THE COURSE OF THAT, THEY SPENT $13 MILLION DOLLARS SUBPOENAING EVERY DOCUMENT THAT EVER WAS HUGHES-RELATED, PLUS DEPOSING ABOUT 500 PEOPLE.

PATT>> AND THERE WAS A GREAT DEAL OF PUBLIC RECORDS?

RICHARD HACK>> WELL, IT IS SEALED NOW, BUT I HAD ACCESS TO ALL 110,000 PAGES OF IT, SO THAT FORMED THE MAJORITY OF THIS PARTICULAR BOOK.

PATT>> AND THERE'S SO MUCH IN HERE ABOUT HIM AS A MAN AND AS A GENIUS IN A WAY, A KIND OF COCK-EYED GENIUS OF A LOT OF THINGS --

RICHARD HACK>> -- A LITTLE LOP-SIDED GENIUS, YES. HE WAS A GREAT CONCEIVER OF THINGS. HE LIKED TO CONCEPTUALIZE AN IDEA LIKE SATELLITE SURVEILLANCE, FOR INSTANCE. HE DIDN'T KNOW HOW TO PUT A SATELLITE UP INTO THE SKY, BUT HE FOUND PEOPLE WHO DID AND THEY DID PUT THE FIRST SATELLITE UP.

PATT>> WE HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH OF HIM AS A YOUNG MAN. HE CAME UP WITH A POWERED BICYCLE --

RICHARD HACK>> -- RIGHT.

PATT>> -- WHEN HE WAS A KID AND CHARGED THE NEIGHBORHOOD KIDS FIVE CENTS TO RIDE AROUND ON IT.

RICHARD HACK>> THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HE DID. HE PUT A MOTOR ON HIS BICYCLE AND CHARGED FIVE CENTS. IT WAS THE TYPE OF THING THAT HE WOULD DO LATER ON IN LIFE AS WELL. HE ALSO, OF COURSE, FOUND OUT ABOUT HOW TO MAKE A GUIDED MISSILE. HE CHARGED THE GOVERNMENT QUITE A BIT MORE THAN FIVE CENTS A RIDE. (LAUGHTER) --

PATT>> -- FIVE CENTS, ALTHOUGH HE TOOK THEM FOR A RIDE, CERTAINLY.

RICHARD HACK>> YES, HE SURE DID.

PATT>> AND HE WAS A PERFECTIONIST IN SO MANY OF THESE THINGS. HE ENGINEERED THIS BRA, THIS FAMOUS BRA, FOR JANE RUSSELL --

RICHARD HACK>> -- THAT'S RIGHT, MADE OF METAL.

PATT>> AND NO DETAIL PASSED HIS ATTENTION.

RICHARD HACK>> RIGHT. HE WAS A MICRO MANAGER -- I MEAN, WE'VE NEVER SEEN THE LIKES OF HIM. HE WOULD DELAY A FILM FOR FIVE AND SIX YEARS UNTIL HE COULD GET EVERY FRAME EDITED THE WAY HE CARED TO.

PATT>> WELL, HE WAS ALSO A MAN WHO PUT TOGETHER A MEMO OF HIS GOALS EARLY IN LIFE. AMONG OTHER THINGS, HE WANTED TO BE THE BEST PILOT AND THE BEST PRODUCER. AND AS AN AVIATOR, HE SET RECORDS.

RICHARD HACK>> YES, HE DID. A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE THAT HE SET THE SPEED RECORD FOR FLYING AROUND THE WORLD SOON AFTER LINDBERGH HAD SET IT FOR FLYING ACROSS THE ATLANTIC. HE NOT ONLY WENT ACROSS THE ATLANTIC, HE KEPT GOING AROUND THE ENTIRE WORLD. THAT WAS THE LARGEST TICKER TAPE PARADE STILL TO THIS DAY IN NEW YORK CITY.

PATT>> THIS IS WITH ONE OF THE PLANES HE SET THE RECORD -- THE SPEED RECORD --

RICHARD HACK>> -- THAT WAS A LAND SPEED RECORD OF 330 MILES OR SO PER HOUR. HE CRASHED WHEN HE LANDED IT, BY THE WAY. HE WAS A GREAT PILOT, BUT THE LANDING --

PATT>> -- (LAUGHTER) NOT TOO GOOD ON THE LANDING PART.

RICHARD HACK>> (LAUGHTER) THE LANDING WAS A LITTLE TOUGH.

PATT>> ALSO, HIS -- WELL, OF COURSE, HE HAD THE SPRUCE GOOSE WHICH WE WILL SEE LATER, A PICTURE OF THAT, THE HERCULES, THE GREAT WOODEN PLANE. HE FLEW FOR AMERICAN AIRLINES UNDER A FALSE NAME FOR A FEW WEEKS BEFORE HE GOT CAUGHT?

RICHARD HACK>> THAT'S RIGHT. IT HAPPENED TO BE HIS ONLY PAID JOB IN HIS LIFE.

PATT>> EXCEPT FOR THE MONEY HE INHERITED FROM HIS PARENTS.

RICHARD HACK>> WELL, YES, BUT THAT, OF COURSE, WASN'T A JOB. THAT WAS JUST MONEY.

PATT>> MONEY. HIS IMPACT ON HOLLYWOOD WAS ALSO TREMENDOUS. HE BROUGHT ALONG, OF COURSE, STARLETS AND CHANGED THE STUDIO SYSTEM, BUT HE ALSO STOOD UP TO THE CENSORS IN THE --

RICHARD HACK>> -- HE CERTAINLY DID AND, NOT ONLY THAT, HE BECAME THE SYMBOL OF ANTI-COMMUNISM FOR A LONG PERIOD IN THE UNITED STATES. HE STOOD UP TO THEIR CENSORSHIP, BUT HE ALSO SAID IF WE'RE EMPLOYING AMERICANS, THEY OUGHT TO AT LEAST BE ON OUR SIDE. DURING THE BLACKLIST PERIOD OF THE MCCARTHY ERA, HUGHES WAS VERY PRO AMERICA AND THERE WAS ACTUALLY A GRASSROOTS EFFORT TO MAKE HIM PRESIDENT.

PATT>> I THINK WE HAVE A PICTURE OF HIM AS A -- UNLESS WE'VE SEEN IT ALREADY -- OF HIM AS A MOGUL, A MOVIE PRODUCER, ON A MOVIE CALLED "JET PILOT". AND THAT'S THE HOWARD HUGHES WE THINK OF.

RICHARD HACK>> RIGHT.

PATT>> OF COURSE, YOU SPEAK OF HIM CRASHING, IT WAS THE CRASH THAT CHANGED HIS LOOKS AND MAYBE HIS ATTITUDE TOWARD IS LIFE AS WELL?

RICHARD HACK>> RIGHT. HE CRASHED RIGHT HERE IN CALIFORNIA IN BEVERLY HILLS, RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF BEVERLY HILLS.

PATT>> SOME DOCTOR'S HOUSE, I THINK?

RICHARD HACK>> WELL, ACTUALLY, HE CLIPPED ROSEMARY DECAMP'S FIREPLACE AND HER BEDROOM WINDOW GOT PART OF THE WING. BUT THE FACT WAS HE WAS DAMAGED ALMOST BEYOND RECOGNIZABILITY AND WENT THROUGH SEVERAL SURGERIES AFTER THAT.

PATT>> AND YET HE WAS COMMITTED STILL TO AEROSPACE. AT THE TIME OF HIS DEATH, YOU WRITE THAT HE WAS THE EIGHTH LARGEST DEFENSE CONTRACTOR IN THE COUNTRY. HE HAD A HAND IN EVERYTHING.

RICHARD HACK>> HE DID.

PATT>> THERE WERE THEORIES THAT HE WANTED THE VIETNAM WAR TO CONTINUE TO HELP PAY OFF HIS DEBTS TO KEEP HIS AEROSPACE BUSINESS GOING.

RICHARD HACK>> WELL, ACTUALLY, HE WAS NOT IN FAVOR OF WAR. THAT THEORY HAS COME UP MANY TIMES. BUT HE WAS IN FAVOR OF HUGHES. ANYTHING THAT BENEFITED HIM WAS GOOD FOR THE COUNTRY, AS FAR AS HE WAS CONCERNED, BECAUSE HE WAS NOT ONLY THE LARGEST EMPLOYER IN NEVADA, BUT AT ONE POINT, THE LARGEST DEFENSE CONTRACTOR.

PATT>> THERE'S A PATHOS ABOUT PART OF HIS LIFE. HIS ECCENTRICITY, OF COURSE, DIDN'T COME LATER IN LIFE. THERE WAS EARLY EVIDENCE OF IT WHEN HE HAD AN AUNT WHO HANGED HERSELF. HE STUDIED STRANGULATION SO MUCH THAT HIS PARENTS TOOK HIS BELTS AWAY FROM HIM.

RICHARD HACK>> RIGHT. YES, THEY WERE AFRAID THAT -- EVERYTHING WAS A SCIENCE EXPERIMENT TO HOWARD HUGHES, SO --

PATT>> -- HOW DID HE BECOME SO DETACHED FROM LIFE THAT WE SEE THESE MEMOS WHICH YOU DETAIL SO BEAUTIFULLY ABOUT HOW A CAN OF FRUIT JUICE IS TO BE OPENED IN A SANITARY FASHION? HOW IS HE SO RICH AND SO ENGAGED AND YET SO DETACHED?

RICHARD HACK>> THE FACT IS THAT HE COULD AFFORD ANYTHING. HE BOUGHT NOTHING EXCEPT HIS PRIVACY. HE SEALED HIMSELF OFF AND THE ONLY WAY THAT A GERM COULD GET IN TO HIM, HE FIGURED, WAS THROUGH SOMEBODY WALKING INTO HIS ROOM WITH IT. SO HE WENT TO AN EXTENDED LENGTH TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYTHING HE RECEIVED WAS CLEAN. HE HIMSELF WAS RATHER DIRTY BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO WASH. HE WANTED TO THINK AND TO DO AND TO MAKE MORE MONEY. HE WAS MAKING $175,000 A DAY, BY THE WAY, WHEN HE DIED DOING NOTHING.

PATT>> WHAT IS HIS LEGACY, THEN? SOMEONE WHO IS SUCH A FAILURE AS A PERSON, AS A HUMAN BEING, WHAT IS HIS LEGACY TO THE COUNTRY?

RICHARD HACK>> HIS LEGACY -- RIGHT NOW, WE ARE USING HIS LEGACY OVER TELEVISION. DIRECT TV IS A HUGHES COMPANY TO THIS DAY. HE PUT UP THE FIRST SATELLITE. HE DID DEVISE THE FIRST GUIDED MISSILE. CELLULAR TELEPHONES ARE A LEGACY OF HUGHES RIGHT NOW. RETRACTABLE LANDING GEAR ON PLANES. IN FACT, THERE IS HARDLY AN INDUSTRY IN THIS COUNTRY THAT IS NOT USING A HUGHES-CONCEIVED CONCEPT SOMEWHERE. IT IS ABSOLUTELY AMAZING HOW FAR HIS REACH WENT.

PATT>> AND YET HE WAS SUCH A LOST SOUL.

RICHARD HACK>> HE WAS LOST, BUT HE WAS LOST ON PURPOSE. HE DID IT ON PURPOSE. IT WAS HIS WORLD AND HE CREATED IT AND HE LOVED IT. HE WAS NOT SAD. THIS WAS NOT A SAD, CRAZY PERSON. THIS WAS A HAPPY GENIUS.

PATT>> RICHARD HACK, THANK YOU FOR BRINGING US THE WORLD OF HOWARD HUGHES.

RICHARD HACK>> THANK YOU, PATT, FOR THE TIME. IT'S A PLEASURE.

PATT>> THANK YOU.

JESS>> THE TITLE OF THE BOOK, ONCE AGAIN, IS "HUGHES: THE PRIVATE DIARIES, MEMOS AND LETTERS" AND THE AUTHOR IS RICHARD HACK.

VAL>> THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR THIS EVENING. FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, HAVE A GREAT EVENING.

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