9/24/01

LC010924

JESS>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

SENIOR CITIZENS ARE CONFRONTING A MAJOR HEALTH PROBLEM AND IT'S NOT WHAT YOU MIGHT EXPECT.

GAY YEE>> OLD AGE AND HEALTH PROBLEMS OFTEN GO HAND IN HAND, BUT A GROWING NUMBER OF SENIORS ARE CONFRONTING AN EPIDEMIC THEY NEVER DREAMED WOULD AFFECT THEM, THE AIDS VIRUS.

BERTHA CATO EVANS>> SO YOU GROW OLD THINKING YOU'RE OKAY AND YOU'RE 93 YEARS OLD AND YOU COME DOWN WITH AIDS AND YOU WONDER HOW DID I GET THIS? YOU WERE NOT AWARE, YOU WERE NOT TOLD.

JESS>> THE SEPTEMBER 11 TERRORIST ATTACKS ARE TAKING A TOLL ON THE ECONOMY. IT GOES WELL BEYOND THE STOCK MARKET, AIRPORTS AND THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY. WE'LL TALK WITH AN EXPERT ON SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA'S ECONOMY ABOUT THE RIPPLE EFFECT OF TERRORISM.

THEY PRODUCE SOME OF THE WORLD'S MOST BEAUTIFUL POTTERY. VILLAGERS IN CENTRAL MEXICO TURN OUT HANDMADE POTS WITH NO PROFESSIONAL TRAINING AND ONLY PRIMITIVE EQUIPMENT. THEIR CERAMICS ARE COVETED BY MUSEUMS AND COLLECTORS AROUND THE WORLD. WE'LL TALK WITH THE FILMMAKER WHO DOCUMENTED THIS REMARKABLE STORY.

THESE STORIES ARE COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION
WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY FOUNDATION
UNDERWRITING THE SPANISH LANGUAGE TRANSLATION OF LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

JESS>> GOOD EVENING, I'M JESS MARLOW. VAL ZAVALA HAS THE NIGHT OFF.

A FORM OF DENIAL HAS SET IN AMONG THE FIFTY-PLUS GENERATION. IT'S ABOUT A PUBLIC HEALTH THREAT MANY OLDER AMERICANS NEVER THOUGHT WOULD CONCERN THEM: AIDS. THE HIV-AIDS EPIDEMIC IS STILL IN ITS BEGINNING STAGES IN THIS AGE GROUP. HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONALS WANT TO STOP IT IN ITS TRACKS. BUT AS GAY YEE REPORTS, THE EFFORT IS MEETING SOME STRONG RESISTANCE.

GAY>> YOU COULD SAY GALE MADYUN'S PUBLIC AWARENESS WORKSHOPS ARE A LIFE AND DEATH MISSION.

GALE MADYUN>> I'M NOT SURE HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE COMING. I THINK WE HAVE AT LEAST TEN, MAYBE FIFTEEN.

GAY>> YET ONLY A FRACTION OF THE ANTICIPATED FIFTEEN SENIOR CITIZENS SHOW UP.

GALE MADYUN>> HI, HOW ARE YOU? THANK YOU SO MUCH. DID YOUR PEOPLE COME? OH, THEY AREN'T COMING?

>> I HAVE TWO THAT BACKED OUT AND ONE THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE COMING.

GAY>> THE TOPIC IS SEX AND HIV. THAT'S RIGHT. THIS RETIRED SOCIAL WORKER FINDS BOTH ARE THRIVING AMONG THE ELDERLY.

GAY>> YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU THINK OF LITTLE OLD LADIES AND LITTLE OLD MEN, YOU DON'T THINK OF HIV AND AIDS AS AN ISSUE.

GALE MADYUN>> AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM RIGHT THERE BECAUSE YOU DON'T THINK OF IT AS AN ISSUE AND THAT'S WHY THEY'RE BEING INFECTED. AS I SAID IN THE WORKSHOP, THE RULES HAVE CHANGED.

GAY>> BUT A FEDERAL STUDY HAS PULLED OFF THE BLANKETS.

GALE MADYUN>> THE LARGEST-GROWING HIV-AIDS DEMOGRAPHICS SET, OR SEX POPULATION, ARE FIFTY AND OLDER AND A QUARTER OF THOSE INFECTED WITH AIDS ARE SIXTY AND OVER. SO THE DEMOGRAPHICS -- THE STATISTICS ARE GROWING AND IT'S GROWING AT AN OMINOUS CLIMB.

GAY>> AIDS CASES ARE UP FORTY PERCENT IN THE LAST DECADE IN THIS AGE GROUP, MOSTLY BECAUSE OF UNPROTECTED SEX AMONG HETEROSEXUALS.

BILL GAVITT>> I GREW UP DURING THE ERA OF DRIVE-IN THEATERS. (LAUGHTER) THEY WERE WONDERFUL PLACES. AND I LIVED NEAR THE BEACH AND WE WOULD GO TO THE BEACH AT NIGHT AND WATCH THE SUBMARINE RACES.

GAY>> THINGS ARE DIFFERENT FROM WHEN RETIRED AIR FORCE COLONEL, BILL GAVITT, WAS YOUNG.

BILL GAVITT>> WELL, LOOK, YOU GOT A SOCIETY WHERE DIVORCE IS COMMON NOW. YOU'VE GOT THE LITTLE BLUE PILL, THE VIAGRA, FOR GUYS. IT TURNS THEM INTO THE ROOSTERS AGAIN, THE COCK OF THE WALK SYNDROME. WE GOT NEW LIFE, NEW ABILITY, WE'RE GOING TO SHOW IT OFF.

GAY>> EXPERTS SAY DRUGS THAT ENHANCE SEX ARE ONE FACTOR. DENIAL IS ANOTHER. MOST SENIORS DON'T CONSIDER HIV A PROBLEM IN THEIR AGE GROUP. THAT'S WHAT 68-YEAR-OLD BERTHA CATO EVANS THOUGHT UNTIL SOMEONE SHE KNEW DIED OF AIDS.

BERTHA CATO EVANS>> THAT'S THE BIG PROBLEM. SO YOU GROW OLD THINKING YOU'RE OKAY AND YOU'RE 93 YEARS OLD AND YOU COME DOWN WITH AIDS AND YOU WONDER HOW DID I GET THIS? YOU WERE NOT AWARE, YOU WERE NOT TOLD.

GAY>> BUT WHEN SHE SUGGESTS THAT HER FRIENDS USE CONDOMS, THEY ARE INSULTED BY THE MERE SUGGESTION.

BERTHA CATO EVANS>> THEY ARE JUST SNUBBING ME. THEY'RE JUST TURNING THEIR HEADS UP LIKE "I DON'T NEED THIS AND I ESPECIALLY DON'T NEED IT FROM YOU. WHO ARE YOU TELLING ME ABOUT AIDS AND SENIORS?"

GAY>> MADYUN SAYS A REALITY CHECK IS IN ORDER HERE FOR THE SENIORS, BUT ALSO THE DOCTORS. HIV IS NOT ALWAYS ON THEIR RADAR SCREENS WHEN IT COMES TO THIS POPULATION AND SYMPTOMS ARE SOMETIMES OVERLOOKED.

DR. GERMAINE STROTHER>> INITIALLY, YES. THAT CAN BE INITIAL SYMPTOMS. IT CAN BE THAT THAT MAY NOT BE HIGH ON THEIR RADAR BECAUSE PERHAPS THEY SEE THIS NICE GRANDMOTHERLY OR GRANDFATHERLY PERSON AND IT'S NOT REGISTERING THAT THIS MIGHT BE A POSSIBILITY.

GAY>> BUT MADYUN SAYS DOCTORS SOMETIMES MISTAKE AIDS SYMPTOMS FOR COMMON SIGNS OF AGING.

GALE MADYUN>> PNEUMONIA IS HIGH, DEMENTIA, THEY JUST MISTAKE A LOT OF THE SYMPTOMS OF HIV-AIDS FOR THAT, WASTING, FOR PLAIN AGING, THE AGING PROCESS.

GAY>> WHILE SOME RULES HAVE CHANGED, OTHERS STAY THE SAME WHETHER YOU'RE 25 OR 85.

GALE MADYUN>> IF YOU'RE SEXUALLY ACTIVE, YOU'RE HIGH-RISK FOR HIV-AIDS, WHOEVER YOU ARE. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT AGE YOU ARE.

GAY>> AGE IS NOT A VACCINE FOR AIDS.

JESS>> GAY YEE JOINS US ALONG WITH LEE KLOSINSKI. HE IS DIRECTOR OF EDUCATION FOR AIDS PROJECT L.A. 

YOU WERE A BIT SURPRISED BY WHAT YOU FOUND THERE?

GAY>> IT IS SURPRISING. YOU JUST WOULDN'T THINK IN THOSE TERMS AND, UNFORTUNATELY, NO ONE DOES.

JESS>> WE ACCEPT THE FACT THAT PEOPLE ARE SEXUALLY ACTIVE WELL INTO THEIR SENIOR YEARS.

GAY>> AS A MATTER OF FACT, AND YOU MAY KNOW THIS TOO, THE CDC HAS A REPORT THAT PEOPLE ARE SEXUALLY ACTIVE WAY INTO THEIR NINETIES.

JESS>> WE SHOULD ALL HOPE SO. (LAUGHTER)

GAY>> (LAUGHTER) RIGHT, SO THAT'S GOOD NEWS. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL.

JESS>> THE AIDS PROJECT L.A., TRYING TO EDUCATE PEOPLE ABOUT AIDS, ARE YOU REACHING THAT AGE GROUP?

LEE KLOSINSKI>> I HOPE WE ARE. THIS IS, AS THE PIECE INDICATED, A VERY DIFFICULT GROUP BECAUSE THERE IS PROFOUND DENIAL ON THE PART OF MANY ELDERLY PEOPLE. AND MANY OF THE PEOPLE WHO TAKE CARE OF THEM, MEDICAL PROVIDERS, FOR EXAMPLE, WORK UNDER THE SAME ASSUMPTIONS THAT WERE ILLUSTRATED IN THIS PIECE, THAT PEOPLE OVER FIFTY DON'T HAVE SEX. SO THIS IS A REAL CHALLENGE, BUT HIV EDUCATION HAS ALWAYS BEEN A CHALLENGE BECAUSE OF THE DENIAL THAT IS PRESENT IN OUR SOCIETY ABOUT THIS DISEASE.

JESS>> IT WAS A LOT EASIER WHEN THE ONLY RISK OF UNPROTECTED SEX WAS AN UNWANTED PREGNANCY --

GAY>> -- ABSOLUTELY.

JESS>> -- BUT IT'S FAR DIFFERENT NOW?

GAY>> THAT'S TRUE, AND THAT'S PART OF THE, YOU KNOW, OLD STEREOTYPES, THAT, YOU KNOW, SENIORS SAY "I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT HAVING A BABY, SO I DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT USING CONDOMS" AND THE RULES HAVE CHANGED.

JESS>> WERE YOU SURPRISED AT THE FRANKNESS OF THOSE YOU TALKED TO?

GAY>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE ARE QUITE FRANK, BUT MANY IN THE GENERAL POPULATION HERE ARE STILL HAVING DIFFICULTY WITH THIS. YOU KNOW, AS WE EXPRESSED IN THE PIECE, THERE WERE PEOPLE THAT WERE INVITED TO COME AND THEY ALL CANCELED AT THE VERY LAST MINUTE.

JESS>> THAT'S GOT TO BE A PROBLEM FOR YOU.

LEE KLOSINSKI>> IT IS, BUT THE MORE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM IS DEALING STILL WITH HIV AND AIDS AS AN ISSUE IN EVERY AGE GROUP BECAUSE DENIAL IS PERVASIVE AND THE ISSUE OF SENIORS JUST MAGNIFIES A MUCH MORE COMMON CHALLENGE THAT I FACE DAILY.

JESS>> AND IN YOUR PIECE, GAY, YOU POINTED OUT THAT GENERALLY THIS IS THE RESULT OF UNPROTECTED HETEROSEXUAL SEX?

GAY>> THAT'S RIGHT. AND APPARENTLY IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA, THEY THINK IT'S SUCH A BIG PROBLEM THAT THE STATE OF FLORIDA HAS ESTABLISHED AN ACTUAL DEPARTMENT WITHIN THE STATE FOR OUTREACH LIKE THIS, BASICALLY GETTING THE WORD OUT TO SENIOR CITIZENS, ALL THE RETIREES IN FLORIDA.

JESS>> DO WE NEED THAT HERE?

LEE KLOSINSKI>> WE HAVE SOME OF THAT GOING ON HERE AND WE NEED MORE OF IT, JUST AS WE NEED MORE HIV AND AIDS EDUCATION WITH EVERY AGE GROUP.

JESS>> IN THE RESEARCH THAT'S BEING DONE TO TRY TO FIND A CURE FOR AIDS, SENIORS ARE BEING IGNORED IN THAT PRETTY MUCH, AREN'T THEY?

LEE KLOSINSKI>> SENIORS TEND TO BE IGNORED IN EVERY TYPE OF MEDICAL RESEARCH, UNFORTUNATELY, JUST AS CHILDREN DO.

JESS>> AND VIAGRA. HAS THAT BEEN PART OF THE PROBLEM? TO SOME IT'S THE SOLUTION, BUT MAYBE IT'S A PROBLEM HERE. (LAUGHTER)

LEE KLOSINSKI>> VIAGRA IS PROBABLY EASIER TO OBTAIN FOR SOME PEOPLE THAN ASPIRIN BECAUSE IT CAN BE DELIVERED TO YOUR DOOR WITH A SIMPLE PHONE CALL OR LOGGING ON TO A WEBSITE. VIAGRA CERTAINLY HAS DRIVEN THIS, HORMONAL REPLACEMENT HAS DRIVEN THIS, AND THE FACT THAT THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO ARE LIVING TODAY IN THEIR FIFTIES AND SIXTIES WHO HAVE BEEN DIAGNOSED WITH AIDS AND WHO HAVE BENEFITED FROM THE CURRENT THERAPIES THAT ARE AVAILABLE. SO WE HAVE A LARGER POOL OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SEXUALLY ACTIVE AND POTENTIALLY INFECTING OTHER PEOPLE.

JESS>> THOSE WITH HIV ARE LIVING LONGER, THEN?

LEE KLOSINSKI>> YES.

JESS>> THANK YOU BOTH. THANKS VERY MUCH. LEE KLOSINSKI, AIDS PROJECT L.A., THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US.

UP NEXT, AN EXPERT ON SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA'S ECONOMY TALKS ABOUT HOW TERRORISM MAY AFFECT OUR REGION.

CLEARLY, NO QUESTION THE U.S. ECONOMY IS FEELING THE IMPACT OF THE WORST TERRORIST EVER ON U.S. SOIL, EVER ANYWHERE FOR THAT MATTER. THE DOW JONES AVERAGE HAD ITS LARGEST POINT LOSS IN HISTORY LAST WEEK. THE TURBULENT WEEK ON WALL STREET LEFT INVESTORS NERVOUS, BUT THE PRESIDENT CONTINUES TO REASSURE AMERICANS THAT THE LONG-RANGE PROSPECTS ARE GOOD.

PRESIDENT BUSH>> I'VE GOT GREAT FAITH IN THE ECONOMY. I UNDERSTAND IT'S TOUGH RIGHT NOW. TRANSPORTATION BUSINESS IS HURTING. OBVIOUSLY, THE MARKET WAS CORRECTING PRIOR TO THIS CRISIS.

JESS>> THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY ALONE FACES STAGGERING LOSSES. 68,000 LAYOFFS NATIONWIDE SO FAR AND PREDICTIONS THAT THE NUMBER WILL EVENTUALLY TOP 100,000. LAX LOSING MORE THAN A MILLION DOLLARS A DAY AND THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE THE AIRPORT VENDORS WHO LOST BUSINESS FROM FRIENDS AND RELATIVES WHO CAN NO LONGER ACCOMPANY PASSENGERS TO THE GATES. HOW HARD WILL THE EFFECT BE FELT HERE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA? EDWARD LEAMER IS AN EXPERT ON THE REGION'S ECONOMY. HE'S DIRECTOR OF THE UCLA ANDERSON FORECAST.

DR. LEAMER, HOW BAD IS IT FOR SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA? ANY WORSE THAN IT IS ANYWHERE ELSE?

EDWARD LEAMER>> WELL, THE ANSWER IS, IT DEPENDS. THIS IS PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE. THE TERRORISTS DIDN'T JUST ATTACK A BUILDING. THEY ATTACKED THE AMERICAN SPIRIT AND I THINK THE FUNDAMENTAL ASPECTS OF THE AMERICAN SPIRIT ARE OPTIMISM AND TOLERANCE. IF WE AS INDIVIDUALS HERE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA AND AROUND THE NATION ALLOW THE TERRORISTS TO WIN AND LET OUR OPTIMISM AND OUR TOLERANCE DETERIORATE SIGNIFICANTLY, THEN THERE CAN BE SIGNIFICANT ECONOMIC DAMAGE.

JESS>> DO WE SEE ANY EVIDENCE OF OPTIMISM AND TOLERANCE IN WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE STOCK MARKET? PEOPLE ARE SELLING --

EDWARD LEAMER>> -- WELL, THE STOCK MARKET IS EXPRESSING A VERY LARGE LACK OF OPTIMISM, BUT MY VIEW IS THAT THERE'S A RESILIENCE IN THE AMERICAN SPIRIT JUST AS THERE IS A RESILIENCE IN THE ECONOMY AND WE'LL QUICKLY RECOVER OUR OPTIMISM. PEOPLE WILL BE FLYING AGAIN AND PEOPLE WILL BE MAKING COMMITMENTS TO THE FUTURE IN BUYING CARS AND BUYING HOUSES. AND WHEN THAT OCCURS, THIS ECONOMIC EFFECT OF THIS TERRIBLE CATASTROPHE WILL BE LIMITED MOSTLY TO NEW YORK AND NEW JERSEY.

JESS>> THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY WAS CLEARLY A CASUALTY, TOO, OF THIS AND THEY WERE THE FIRST TO BEGIN TO SEEK BAILOUTS. ARE THOSE JUSTIFIED?

EDWARD LEAMER>> THIS HAS TO BE PUT IN THE PROPER CONTEXT BECAUSE THE LOAD FACTORS FOR THE AIRLINES HAD ALREADY BEEN DROPPING CONSIDERABLY. WE WERE ALREADY IN A RECESSION PRIOR TO THIS TERRORIST ATTACK AND MANY COMPANIES WERE ALREADY EXPERIENCING PROBLEMS WITH SALES AND THINKING ABOUT MAKING LAYOFFS. BUT PARTICULARLY AIRLINES, THEIR FREIGHT TRACKERS WERE WAY DOWN, THEIR FREIGHT LOADS WERE WAY DOWN, THE PASSENGER LOADS WERE WAY DOWN. IT'S A VERY TYPICAL BOOM-BUST KIND OF SECTOR AND THEY WOULD HAVE HAD TO MAKE LAYOFFS REGARDLESS. I SEE THEIR ANNOUNCEMENTS AS A CONSEQUENCE OF THE RECESSION AND SHOULD NOT BE ATTRIBUTED TO THIS TERRORIST ATTACK.

JESS> BUT THE AMERICAN ECONOMY CAN'T AFFORD TO LET THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY DIE.

EDWARD LEAMER>> WELL, AIR TRAVEL IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL TO THE EFFICIENT OPERATION OF THE ECONOMY AND IF THE FAA IMPOSES DRACONIAN RULES AND REGULATIONS THAT MAKE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO SHIP PRODUCTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND MAKE IT VERY DIFFICULT TO DO BUSINESS TRAVEL, THEN THAT WILL HAVE A SIGNIFICANT ECONOMIC IMPACT. WE HAVE TO HAVE --

JESS>> -- YOU SEE THE SECURITY MEASURES THAT ARE BEING TAKEN NOW. ARE SOME OF THEM DRACONIAN?

EDWARD LEAMER>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF THEY'RE DRACONIAN, BUT THEY SEEM TO ME TO BE MORE OF A PUBLIC RELATIONS PHENOMENON. I'M THINKING OF THE NO CURBSIDE CHECK-IN. I ASK MYSELF, IF THIS IS SO IMPORTANT, WHY WASN'T THIS DONE A MONTH AGO? AND THIS DECISION NOT TO ALLOW CARS IN THE OUTER RING, IN THE HORSESHOE, AT LAX, I DON'T GET THAT AS A SECURITY MEASURE.

SO WHAT I WORRY ABOUT IS THE FAA WHO, FRANKLY, HAS TO TAKE SOME RESPONSIBILITY IN LETTING US DOWN, AS WELL AS OUR INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY. THE FAA IS CREATING KIND OF A SMOKE SCREEN IN RAISING THE COST OF TRAVEL AND DELIVERY OF SERVICES, AND THAT WILL CAUSE AN ECONOMIC PROBLEM. WE NEED TO HAVE AN EFFICIENT AIRLINE SYSTEM. WE NEED TO BE UP AND OPERATING VERY QUICKLY.

JESS>> AND IN MANY NATIONS, WHEN THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY, THERE IS A STATE SUBSIDY THAT TAKES CARE OF IT. THE BAILOUT THAT'S BEING TALKED ABOUT, WOULD THAT BE -- COULD THAT GROW TO A PERMANENT SUBSIDY?

EDWARD LEAMER>> WE DON'T WANT THAT. WE WANT THE AIRLINES TO DO THEIR OWN PLANNING WITH REGARD TO CAPACITY. ESPECIALLY, TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY MADE BAD BUSINESS JUDGMENTS OVER THE LAST YEAR IN DOING A CAPACITY PLANNING, THEY AND THEIR SHAREHOLDERS SHOULD BEAR THE CONSEQUENCES. WE DO, I THINK, HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO HELP THEM OUT WITH THE TREMENDOUS PASSENGER AND FREIGHT LOAD REDUCTIONS THAT THEY'VE SUFFERED IN THE LAST WEEK.

JESS>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE ECONOMY GENERALLY. IT WAS IN TROUBLE BEFORE THE TERRORIST ATTACKS.

EDWARD LEAMER>> YES, IT WAS.

JESS>> THE MARKETS WERE DOWN, LAYOFFS WERE -- WE'RE HEARING ANOTHER 30,000 BEING ANNOUNCED ANY DAY. IS THIS STRONG ENOUGH TO REALLY TIP US INTO A MAJOR RECESSION, EVEN DEPRESSION?

EDWARD LEAMER>> NO. THIS HAS VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH THE COURSE OF THE ECONOMY OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF MONTHS. THE REAL STORY OF THE RECESSION IS THAT BUSINESS MADE VERY HEAVY INVESTMENTS IN INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY EQUIPMENT, SOFTWARE AND PERSONNEL FROM 1996 UNTIL ABOUT THE YEAR 2000, A PERIOD I CALL THE INTERNET RUSH, AND THEY DIDN'T GET ANY PROFITS FROM THOSE INVESTMENTS.

SO PROFIT-BUILDING IN THE CORPORATE SECTOR IS TERRIBLE AND BUSINESSES NOW ARE SAYING, WELL, WE'LL ONLY MAKE THESE INVESTMENTS IF WE CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO GET THE PROFITS OUT OF IT AND THEY HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO FIGURE THAT. SO BUSINESS INVESTMENTS HAVE BEEN PLUMMETING DRAMATICALLY AND THAT'S BEEN THE REASONS FOR THE SLOWDOWN. WE'RE GOING TO RECOVER WHEN BUSINESS INVESTMENT RECOVERS. THAT'S THE ESSENTIAL THING.

JESS>> AND WHAT WILL IT TAKE FOR BUSINESS INVESTMENT TO RECOVER? RESTORED CONFIDENCE?

EDWARD LEAMER>> WELL, I DON'T SEE CONFIDENCE AS PLAYING A MATERIAL ROLE. WE HAVE TAKEN A SHORT-TERM HIT TO OUR CONFIDENCE AND OUR OPTIMISM, BUT I THINK WE'RE GOING TO RECOVER. CONSUMERS ARE GOING TO FEEL BETTER. I THINK WE ALL NEED TO MAKE AN EFFORT. I WENT OUT ON THE WEEKEND AND BOUGHT A TV. I'M GOING TO GO OUT TONIGHT TO A RESTAURANT AND HAVE A NICE MEAL AND LEAVE A BIG TIP. WE ALL OUGHT TO DO THAT. WE OUGHT NOT TO BE HIDING IN OUR HOMES AND WATCHING THE IMAGE OF THAT BUILDING CRASH OVER AND OVER. IF WE DO, THEN WE'RE GOING TO FEEL A LACK OF OPTIMISM AND WILL DO DAMAGE.

JESS>> AND AS YOU LOOK AT YOUR STOCK PORTFOLIO, WHAT DO YOU DO WITH THAT?

EDWARD LEAMER>> THERE'S TWO THINGS YOU SHOULDN'T BE WATCHING. ONE IS THE IMAGE OF THAT BUILDING COLLAPSING, AND THE OTHER IS THE EQUITY PRICES ON WALL STREET. THOSE ARE JUST TOO DEPRESSING. THERE'S NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THAT TREMENDOUS LOSS IN EQUITY VALUE ON WALL STREET. THE ECONOMIC DAMAGE OF THIS EVENT IS NO MORE THAN A HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS. IT'S PROBABLY TWENTY BILLION DOLLARS. BUT THE LOSS IN EQUITY VALUE ON WALL STREET IS MORE LIKE TWO TRILLION DOLLARS, COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE TO THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION.

JESS>> AND THE RIPPLE EFFECT WE'VE ALL BEEN SO FEARFUL OF, YOU THINK THAT WILL BE HERE FOR JUST A SHORT TIME OR IS IT REALLY A THREAT?

EDWARD LEAMER>> IT DEPENDS ON US. IF WE RECOVER OUR OPTIMISM, THERE WON'T BE A RIPPLE EFFECT. IT WILL BE LIKE HURRICANE ANDREW THAT DID FORTY BILLION DOLLARS WORTH OF DAMAGE IN THE STATE OF FLORIDA AND WE DIDN'T FEEL THAT HERE IN CALIFORNIA.

JESS>> SO THE KEY IS CONFIDENCE --

EDWARD LEAMER>> -- CONFIDENCE.

JESS>> -- AND PATIENCE?

EDWARD LEAMER>> PATIENCE TOO.

JESS>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH. EDWARD LEAMER OF UCLA.

LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG
WWW.KCET.ORG.
LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT
4401 SUNSET BLVD.
LOS ANGELES, CA 90027
(323) 953-5555

JESS>> HANDMADE POTTERY IS DRAWING SOME WORLDWIDE ATTENTION TO A SMALL VILLAGE IN MEXICO. COLLECTORS AND MUSEUMS PRIZE THESE POTS MADE BY MEXICAN VILLAGERS WITH NO FORMAL TRAINING. THE POTTERY IS NOW INCLUDED IN WORLD-CLASS MUSEUMS, INCLUDING THE SMITHSONIAN. IT'S NAMED FOR THE VILLAGE IN WHICH IT ORIGINATED, MATA ORTIZ POTTERY. THE TECHNIQUE WAS DEVELOPED BY VILLAGE ELDER, JUAN QUEZADA. HE REVIVED THE ANCIENT ART AFTER HE DUG UP POTTERY MADE MORE THAN 600 YEARS AGO. FILMMAKER, RON GOEBEL, HAS DOCUMENTED THE STORY OF MATA ORTIZ POTTERY.

RON, IN RESEARCHING FOR THE DOCUMENTARY ABOUT THIS POTTERY, COULD YOU HAVE EVER IMAGINED THESE INTRICATE DESIGNS FROM SOMEONE WHO IS TOTALLY UNTRAINED?

RON GOEBEL>> IT'S AMAZING TO ME. THE WORK IS EXQUISITE. IT'S EXTREMELY WELL EXECUTED AND IT'S BEEN QUITE A STORY BEING ASSOCIATED WITH MATA ORTIZ POTTERY.

JESS>> IT'S NOT JUST THE DESIGN, IT'S THE STRUCTURE TOO?

RON GOEBEL>> THIS IS A BEAUTIFUL FORM HERE, FOR EXAMPLE. IT IS THE STRUCTURE. THIS IS MORE OF AN EFFIGY TYPE POT BASED ON NATIVE ANIMALS THAT ARE IN THAT PART OF CHIHUAHUA, MEXICO.

VAL>> NOW TELL PEOPLE WHERE THIS CAME FROM AND HOW YOU DISCOVERED IT.

RON GOEBEL>> SURE. THIS IS A TOWN THAT IS LOCATED IN NORTHERN CHIHUAHUA IN NORTHERN MEXICO. IT'S A TOWN CALLED MATA ORTIZ THAT IS APPROXIMATELY, OH, MAYBE 120 MILES FROM THE AMERICAN BORDER. THE WAY I GOT ASSOCIATED WITH THIS WAS THROUGH A LIFELONG INTEREST IN POTTERY. A FRIEND OF MINE WENT TO A WORKSHOP WHERE THIS MATA ORTIZ POTTERY WAS PRESENTED AND LET ME KNOW ABOUT IT. AFTER THAT, MY WIFE AND I LOOKED AT EACH OTHER AND SAID, "WE COULD MAKE THAT TRIP." (LAUGHTER) WE DECIDED TO GO DOWN TO MATA ORTIZ AND --

VAL>> -- AND YOU DID AND YOU SHOT SOME VIDEO. WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A LOOK AT THE POTTERY THAT WAS ACTUALLY MADE BY THE ANCIENTS, THE ANCESTORS, AND THEN WE'RE GOING TO SEE WHAT THE MODERN -- THIS IS THE ANCIENT POTTERY FROM THAT AREA, CORRECT?

RON GOEBEL>> THIS IS FROM THE CASAS GRANDES CIVILIZATION WHICH THRIVED FROM ABOUT 1250 A.D. TO MAYBE 1450 A.D.

JESS>> WAS THERE ANY INTERRUPTION IN THE TRADITION OF POTTERY-MAKING IN THIS REGION?

RON GOEBEL>> THERE WAS. THERE WAS AN INTERRUPTION OF PROBABLY AT LEAST 600 TO 700 YEARS.

VAL>> BUT THIS IS WHAT THE MODERN INHABITANTS ARE NOW DOING. THEY'RE KIND OF INNOVATING ON THE ANCESTRAL --

RON GOEBEL>> -- CORRECT. THE CONTEMPORARY WORK IS BASED ON THE TRADITIONAL CASAS GRANDES DESIGNS, BUT IT HAS CERTAINLY TAKEN A NEW TURN.

VAL>> OH, IT'S GORGEOUS. LOOK AT THAT DETAIL. THIS IS ALL HANDMADE?

RON GOEBEL>> ALL OF THIS IS HANDMADE. THEY DIG THEIR OWN CLAY.

VAL>> THEY DON'T EVEN USE POTTER'S WHEELS?

RON GOEBEL>> NO, THEY DON'T USE POTTER'S WHEELS. THEY'RE VERY PROUD OF THAT.

VAL>> THAT'S AMAZING. SO WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN TO THIS VILLAGE? I MEAN, IT'S CHANGED A LOT NOW THAT THEY GOT DISCOVERED, RIGHT? IN A SENSE, THEY GOT DISCOVERED?

RON GOEBEL>> THE STANDARD OF LIVING HAS INCREASED A LOT. A LOT OF REALLY GOOD THINGS HAVE GONE ON IN TERMS OF THE STANDARD OF LIVING AND EDUCATION AND I THINK THE WORK WILL JUST CONTINUE TO GET MORE AND MORE POPULAR.

JESS>> IS THIS JUAN?

RON GOEBEL>> THIS IS JUAN QUEZADA.

VAL>> HE'S THE ONE THAT REALLY STARTED THIS WHOLE REVIVAL?

RON GOEBEL>> RIGHT. JUAN DISCOVERED LITERALLY HOW TO MAKE POTTERY. HE REINVENTED AN ANCIENT CERAMIC TECHNOLOGY THAT HAD REMAINED DORMANT FOR ABOUT 700 YEARS.

JESS>> AND THE VILLAGE NOW HAS HOW MANY POTTERS?

RON GOEBEL>> APPROXIMATELY 400 POTTERS.

JESS>> HE'S TAUGHT EACH OF THEM?

RON GOEBEL>> DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY. THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT.

VAL>> BUT HE HIMSELF HAD TO EXPERIMENT A LOT AND STRUGGLE WITH THE CLAY AND LEARN HOW TO DO IT HIMSELF?

RON GOEBEL>> HE EXPERIMENTED, WE THINK, FOR APPROXIMATELY TEN OR FIFTEEN YEARS FIGURING OUT, BASED ON THE POT SHARDS THAT WERE ON THE GROUND IN THAT REGION. HE EXPERIMENTED AND FIGURED OUT HOW TO MAKE THIS MORE CONTEMPORARY POTTERY.

JESS>> THESE ARE BEING EXHIBITED IN SOME OF THE MOST SOPHISTICATED GALLERIES, PARTICULARLY IN THE SOUTHWEST, ESPECIALLY IN SANTA FE, AND THEY'RE NOT INEXPENSIVE.

RON GOEBEL>> NO, THEY'RE NOT INEXPENSIVE. IT'S A POTTERY THAT REALLY TIES IN TO THE SOUTHWESTERN UNITED STATES CULTURE IN SANTA FE, SCOTTSDALE, PHOENIX, TUCSON, FLAGSTAFF, BUT ALSO IN OTHER PLACES IN THE MIDWEST AND EVEN IN NEW YORK.

VAL>> BUT WHEN JUAN QUEZADA FIRST STARTED MAKING THEM, HE WAS GIVING THEM AWAY, SELLING THEM FOR A DOLLAR (LAUGHTER).

RON GOEBEL>> YEAH, THERE WAS NOT A MARKET FOR IT. THERE WAS NOT A MARKET FOR IT. HE GAVE SOME OF THEM TO HIS FRIENDS AND SOME OF THE POTS MADE THEIR WAY NORTH OF THE INTERNATIONAL BORDER.

JESS>> AND NOW THEY'RE PRICED IN THE THOUSANDS?

RON GOEBEL>> FOR EXAMPLE, THESE PIECES WE SEE HERE ARE IN THE THOUSANDS, YES, AND MANY, MANY OTHER PIECES THAT ARE MADE BY MANY OTHER POTTERS.

JESS>> SO JUAN QUEZADA IS A RICH MAN?

RON GOEBEL>> I HOPE HE'S A RICH MAN. (LAUGHTER) I THINK BY HIS STANDARDS OF HIS TOWN, HE IS A RICH MAN.

VAL>> NOW HE BECAME DISCOVERED BECAUSE THERE WAS AN ANTHROPOLOGIST WHO SPOTTED ONE OF HIS POTS IN A SECONDHAND STORE IN NEW MEXICO AND SAID, "I HAVE TO FIND THE ARTIST". SO HE MADE A LONG TREK AND DID A LITTLE BIT OF DETECTIVE WORK, FOUND JUAN QUEZADA, AND HERE'S HOW JUAN QUEZADA DESCRIBES THEIR FIRST MEETING.

JUAN QUEZADA (INTERPRETED)>> LUCKILY, HE FINALLY ARRIVED IN CASAS GRANDES. SOME OF THE FIRST PEOPLE HE MET TOLD HIM, GO TO MATA ORTIZ. SO HE CAME TO MATA ORTIZ AND HE SHOWED ME THREE POTS. I SAID I MADE THEM. HE SAID SHOW ME. SO I TOOK A COUPLE OF PIECES FROM A BOX AND SHOWED HIM AND HE SAID, YES, EXACTLY, THEY ARE YOURS. HE SAID, I THINK THERE ARE MUSEUMS THAT WOULD LIKE TO HAVE YOUR WORK. I WAS CRAZY WITH HAPPINESS TO HAVE MY WORK KNOWN IN THE UNITED STATES. FOR ME, YOU CAN'T BELIEVE IT. HOW COULD SOMEONE PAY ME TO DO THE THING I LOVE?

INTERPRETED>> I ORIGINALLY WAS A TEACHER IN THE MOUNTAINS OF CHIHUAHUA. MY SALARY WASN'T VERY MUCH, SO I CAME TO TEACH IN MY HOMETOWN OF MATA ORTIZ. AFTER SCHOOL HOURS, I BEGAN TO MAKE POTS WITH MY BROTHER, JAIME, AND ALWAYS WITH THE HELP OF MY WIFE. WE BEGAN MOSTLY FOR ECONOMIC NECESSITY, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, WHEN I BECAME FAMILIAR WITH THIS WORK, I REALLY LIKED IT. IT MAKES ME VERY CONTENT TO BE PART OF THE POTTERY MOVEMENT AND I CONTINUE TO TEACH SCHOOL AS WELL. FOR MY FAMILY AND FOR THE TOWN OF MATA ORTIZ, OUR STANDARD OF LIVING HAS INCREASED TREMENDOUSLY.

INTERPRETED>> WHEN I BECAME A POTTER, I DIDN'T HAVE TO WORK OUTSIDE THE HOME. MY WIFE, LYDIA, AND I ARE HAPPY BECAUSE WE'RE ALWAYS WITH OUR CHILDREN AT HOME WATCHING THEM GROW.

JESS>> THIS DOCUMENTARY FOR YOU MUST HAVE BEEN A LABOR OF LOVE.

RON GOEBEL>> IT WAS A LABOR OF LOVE. WE LOVE THE WORK AND WE STILL LOVE THE PEOPLE AND THE POTTERY DOWN THERE. WE PLAN ON MAKING ANOTHER DOCUMENTARY.

VAL>> IT'S FANTASTIC. WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR INTRODUCING US TO THESE TALENTED PEOPLE. I'M SO HAPPY THAT THEY'VE BEEN DISCOVERED.

AND IF PEOPLE WOULD LIKE MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE DOCUMENTARY, ABOUT THE POTTERY OR HOW TO REACH YOU, THEY CAN DO IT THROUGH YOUR WEBSITE AT WWW.MATAORTIZPOTTERY.COM. DID I GET THAT RIGHT?

RON GOEBEL>> THAT'S PERFECT, VAL.

VAL>> WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR WORK.

RON GOEBEL>> IT'S BEEN A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

JESS>> CONGRATULATIONS.

RON GOEBEL>> THANKS VERY MUCH.

JESS>> SOME CLAY, SOME NATIVE DYES, SOME FIRE, AND VERY TALENTED HANDS.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT'S PROGRAM. WE'LL SEE YOU BACK HERE TOMORROW AT 7:00. NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT, HAVE A GREAT EVENING.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT WAS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION
WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY FOUNDATION
UNDERWRITING THE SPANISH LANGUAGE TRANSLATION OF LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

TO REACH US AT LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT, CALL 323-953-5555. SEND US AN E-MAIL TO LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG OR LOG ONTO OUR WEBSITE AT WWW.KCET.ORG TO SEND MESSAGES OR DOWNLOAD TRANSCRIPTS OF TONIGHT'S PROGRAM.