9/20/01

LC010920

JESS>> ON LIFE AND TIMES --

AN ARAB-AMERICAN IN ORANGE COUNTY HAS BEEN REACHING OUT TO CHRISTIANS AND JEWS AND HE STARTED LONG BEFORE LAST WEEK'S TERRORIST ATTACKS.

GAY YEE>> HE JOINED THE KIWANIS CLUB AND INTERFAITH COUNCILS. HE TOOK THE MAYOR TO DINNER, FORGED A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE POLICE CHIEF AND BECAME A CHAPLAIN IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

HAITHAM BUNDAKJI>> THE TERRORISTS WERE ABLE TO DESTROY SOME BUILDINGS, YES. POWERFUL DESTRUCTION THAT TOOK PLACE. HEINOUS CRIME. BUT THEY COULD NOT DESTROY THE LOVE.

JESS>> DURING THESE UNCERTAIN TIMES, MANY PEOPLE FIND COMFORT IN THEIR RELIGION. TONIGHT WE'LL TALK WITH THREE SPIRITUAL LEADERS ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF FAITH AS THE NATION BRACES FOR WAR.

PLUS WE'LL HEAR FROM PATT MORRISON ABOUT FEARS THAT SOME COMPANIES ARE CASHING IN ON OUR LOVE OF COUNTRY.

PATT>> WAR AND PEACE AND PROFIT. WHAT PRICE PATRIOTISM? ON TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

JESS>> THE TALIBAN MAY NOT THINK MUCH OF AMERICA, BUT CRITICS SAY THE RADICAL MOVEMENT IN AFGHANISTAN DOESN'T THINK MUCH MORE OF ITS OWN WOMEN. TONIGHT WE'LL LOOK AT THE PLIGHT OF THE AFGHANI FEMALE. CRITICS SAY THEY'RE TREATED LIKE PROPERTY AND TONIGHT WE'LL HEAR FROM A FEMINIST LEADER WHO SAYS IT'S TIME FOR THAT COUNTRY TO MOVE BEYOND THE MIDDLE AGES.

IT'S ALL COMING UP NEXT ON LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION
WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY FOUNDATION
UNDERWRITING THE SPANISH LANGUAGE TRANSLATION OF LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

JESS>> I'M JESS MARLOW. VAL ZAVALA IS OFF THIS EVENING.

ON THIS NIGHT WHEN THE PRESIDENT IS TRYING TO CALM THE FEARS OF A WORRIED NATION, BUT WARNING OF THE STRUGGLES AHEAD, PEOPLE ARE LOOKING FOR REASONS TO BE OPTIMISTIC. ONE OF THEM MAY BE AS CLOSE AS ORANGE COUNTY. THAT'S WHERE YOU'LL FIND A MUSLIM WHO'S WAGED HIS OWN PERSONAL CAMPAIGN TO MAKE FRIENDS WITH CHRISTIANS AND JEWS. AS GAY YEE REPORTS, HE STARTED SEVERAL YEARS AGO WHEN THE COUNTRY WAS TRYING TO RECOVER FROM ANOTHER DARK DAY.

GAY YEE>> HE JOINED THE KIWANIS CLUB AND INTERFAITH COUNCILS. HE TOOK THE MAYOR TO DINNER, FORGED A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE POLICE CHIEF AND BECAME A CHAPLAIN IN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT. HE WAS A FAMILIAR FACE IN THE COMMUNITY, A MUSLIM-AMERICAN FACE.

LIKE THE MOSQUE BEING BUILT BEHIND ME, BUNDAKJI WAS CONVINCED THAT BUILDING BRIDGES IN THE COMMUNITY WOULD EVENTUALLY PAY OFF. ON SEPTEMBER 11, 2001, THEY DID. THE PHONE RANG AGAIN AT THE BUNDAKJI HOUSE. THIS TIME THE PERSON ON THE OTHER END WAS THE POLICE CHIEF.

HAITHAM BUNDAKJI>> THE CHIEF CALLED ME AND SAID, "DANNY, I'M CONCERNED ABOUT YOU GUYS."

GAY>> POLICE CRUISERS WERE IMMEDIATELY STATIONED OUTSIDE THE ISLAMIC SOCIETY. PEOPLE FROM THE COMMUNITY VOLUNTEERED TO PROTECT THE MOSQUE.

MARK ROSEN>> ACROSS THE BOARD, CHRISTIANS, JEWS, OTHER MUSLIMS, THE OTHER MINORITY COMMUNITIES IN OUR COMMUNITY.

GAY>> POLICE CHIEF POLISAR CREDITS THE RELATIONSHIPS THAT HAD BEEN WELL ESTABLISHED PRIOR TO THE ATTACK.

CHIEF JOE POLISAR>> THAT'S WHAT WE'RE ALL ABOUT. THAT'S, IN ESSENCE, WHAT COMMUNITY POLICING IS. BUILDING PARTNERSHIPS.

GAY>> ALTHOUGH THE CHIEF SAYS THAT DOESN'T MEAN HIS DEPARTMENT IS SOFT ON SECURITY.

CHIEF JOE POLISAR>> MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT. IF WE DEVELOPED INFORMATION THAT SOMEBODY IN OUR COMMUNITY WAS A TERRORIST, WE WOULD PURSUE THEM WITH THE SAME VIGOR THAT WE DID IN OUR COMPASSION AND OUR CONCERN.

GAY>> DESPITE OVERWHELMING SUPPORT FROM SOME PEOPLE, THERE HAS BEEN A BACKLASH AGAINST MUSLIMS HERE AND NATIONWIDE. EARLIER THIS WEEK, PRESIDENT BUSH VISITED THE ISLAMIC CENTER IN WASHINGTON AND TALKED ABOUT A RISE IN HATE CRIMES AGAINST ARAB-AMERICANS, INCLUDING ONE IN LOS ANGELES COUNTY. ADEL KARAS WAS AN EGYPTIAN-AMERICAN. HE WAS GUNNED DOWN IN HIS STORE IN SAN GABRIEL. THE FBI SAYS KARAS MAY HAVE BEEN MURDERED AS RETALIATION FOR TERRORISM.

PRESIDENT BUSH>> THAT'S NOT WHAT ISLAM IS ALL ABOUT. ISLAM IS PEACE. THESE TERRORISTS DON'T REPRESENT PEACE. THEY REPRESENT EVIL AND WAR.

GAY>> MUSLIM WOMEN, IN PARTICULAR, ARE FRIGHTENED, TARGETED BECAUSE OF THEIR ISLAMIC HEAD COVERING CALLED A HIJAB.

>> WE ARE HEARING MORE AND MORE REPORTS OF THAT AND LITTLE THINGS LIKE SCARF-PULLING AND NAME-CALLING, TAUNTING, HARASSMENT. YOU KNOW, MY HEART GOES OUT TO THOSE WOMEN.

>> THERE'S LIKE NOTHING WRONG WITH ME. I'M AN AMERICAN. I'M THE SAME THING. IT'S JUST MY RELIGION. MUSLIMS, CHRISTIANS, JEWS, ALL RELIGIONS, THEY'RE ALL UNITED IN AMERICA AND WE'RE ALL AMERICANS.

GAY>> MAYOR PRO TEM, MARK ROSEN, SAYS ONE DAY OF TERROR, NO MATTER HOW HORRIFIC, SHOULD NOT DIVIDE A COMMUNITY.

MARK ROSEN>> THERE'S A LOT OF PATRIOTIC FERVOR RIGHT NOW AND THAT'S GOOD, THAT'S EXCELLENT. I HAVEN'T SEEN THAT SINCE I WAS A YOUNG BOY. BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO TURN THAT INTO HATE DIRECTED TOWARD ONE GROUP. WE IN THIS CITY HAVE WORKED HARD TO MAKE SURE THAT WE DON'T HAVE THAT HATRED, THAT WE HAVE A UNITY.

GAY>> DESPITE THE FEARS, BUNDAKJI IS HOPEFUL.

HAITHAM BUNDAKJI>> THE TERRORISTS WERE ABLE TO DESTROY SOME BUILDINGS, YES. POWERFUL DESTRUCTION THAT TOOK PLACE. HEINOUS CRIME. BUT THEY COULD NOT DESTROY THE LOVE. THE BRIDGES THAT WE OF THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY BUILT IN ORANGE COUNTY, AND IN THE UNITED STATES IN GENERAL, ARE STILL SOLID AND STRONG. I BELIEVE THAT THIS HUGE SHOCK DID NOT AFFECT THE STRONG BRIDGES WE BUILT.

GAY>> IN GARDEN GROVE, GAY YEE FOR LIFE AND TIMES.

JESS>> WE'VE JUST SEEN HOW FEARS AND PREJUDICE CAN BE EASED OR ERASED WITH A LITTLE EFFORT, BUT SOME PEOPLE MIGHT TELL YOU IT ALSO TAKES A LITTLE FAITH. TONIGHT WE'VE ASKED THREE LEADERS OF DIFFERENT RELIGIONS TO TALK ABOUT HOW FAITH CAN BE A POSITIVE TOOL. PASTOR WILLIAM M. CAMPBELL HEADS THE MT. GILEAD MISSIONARY BAPTIST CHURCH IN LOS ANGELES, RABBI LAURA GELLER COMES FROM TEMPLE EMANUEL IN BEVERLY HILLS, AND MAHMOUD ABDEL-BASET REPRESENTS THE ISLAMIC CENTER OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA.

FAITH IS THE ANSWER IN ALL THREE RELIGIONS?

REV. WILLIAM M. CAMPBELL>> FAITH CERTAINLY INFORMS OUR TOTAL OUTLOOK AND OUR TOTAL UNDERSTANDING OF LIFE. FAITH BESPEAKS OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. IT BESPEAKS OUR RESPONSE TO GOD'S INITIATIVE IN OUR LIFE AND IT BESPEAKS THE CHANNEL WHEREBY WE LOOK TO GOD TO GAIN INSIGHT AND UNDERSTANDING, GUIDANCE AND DIRECTION IN DEALING WITH ALL ISSUES OF LIFE. IT BECOMES CLEARLY MOST PRONOUNCED WHEN WE FIND OURSELVES CONFRONTING CRISES.

JESS>> IS THAT A UNIVERSAL TENET?

RABBI LAURA GELLER>> IT THINK IT IS AND I THINK, MORE THAN THAT, FAITH GIVES US COMMUNITY, IT GIVES US RITUAL AND IT GIVES US A SENSE OF PERSPECTIVE. IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO REMEMBER THAT BAD THINGS HAVE HAPPENED IN THE PAST AND WE HAVE SURVIVED AS A COUNTRY. CERTAINLY, IN THE JEWISH TRADITION, WE HAVE A VERY LONG HISTORY AND IT'S A HISTORY WHERE WE HAVE COME THROUGH BAD TIMES AND KNOW THAT THERE IS ALWAYS A FUTURE. I THINK THAT SENSE OF PERSPECTIVE IS VERY IMPORTANT AT THIS MOMENT.

JESS>> I WOULD GUESS, MAHMOUD, THAT FAITH IS PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT TO YOUR PEOPLE AT THIS TIME?

MAHMOUD ABDEL-BASET>> IT'S PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT FOR EVERYBODY WHEN CALAMITY HITS BECAUSE WE BELIEVE GOD IS THE CREATOR AND WE DON'T UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING AROUND US IN THIS UNIVERSE. SO WHEN WE ARE HIT WITH SOMETHING THAT IS DESPICABLE LIKE WHAT HAPPENED, I THINK WE RESORT TO FAITH BECAUSE ULTIMATELY GOD WILL SAVE US FROM THAT.

JESS>> MANY CRITICS AND CYNICS WOULD SUGGEST THAT ONE OF THE BIG PROBLEMS IN THE WORLD TODAY IS RELIGIOUS EXTREMISM OF EVERY STRIPE. THERE IS GREAT CONCERN ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS IN NORTHERN IRELAND, GREAT CONCERN ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AND NOW CERTAINLY WHAT'S HAPPENING TODAY. YOU CAN'T BLAME IT ON FAITH.

REV. WILLIAM M. CAMPBELL>> NO, IT'S NOT ABOUT FAITH. IT'S ABOUT PEOPLE ACTING IN TERMS OF THEIR LIFE UNDERSTANDING AND ORIENTATIONS --

JESS>> -- BUT IN THE NAME OF RELIGION, IN TOO MANY INSTANCES.

REV. WILLIAM M. CAMPBELL>> YES, BUT ACTING IN TERMS OF THEIR OWN AGENDAS AND THEN SEEKING TO ACCENTUATE THEIR AGENDA, HOWEVER DISTORTED IT MIGHT BE, VIS-À-VIS THE IMPOSITION OR THE APPLICATION OF SOME RELIGIOUS PRINCIPLE.

RABBI LAURA GELLER>> I THINK THE PROBLEM ISN'T FAITH, BUT EXTREMISM. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT MOST OF US WOULD AGREE THAT THERE IS ONE GOD, BUT THERE ARE DIFFERENT PATHS TO THAT GOD, AND IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE BE OPEN TO THE REALITY THAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT PATHS. SO AS LONG AS WE CAN EXIST IN A PLURALISTIC WORLD THAT ACKNOWLEDGES THE LEGITIMACY OF OTHER PATHS, THEN IT SEEMS TO ME THERE'S NO DIFFICULTY. THE PROBLEM IS WHEN ONE GROUP OR RELIGIOUS TRADITION SAYS THAT OURS IS THE ONLY PATH AND ANYONE WHO TAKES A DIFFERENT PATH ISN'T REALLY A RELIGIOUS PERSON OR ISN'T REALLY BELIEVING IN GOD. THAT'S WHERE DANGER COMES FROM.

JESS>> AND NO RELIGION HOLDS A PATENT ON EXTREMISM.

MAHMOUD ABDEL-BASET>> I HAVE A BETTER WORD FOR IT. IT'S NOT ONLY EXTREMISM, BUT IT'S FANATICISM. FANATICISM IS THE WAY WHEN YOU TAKE YOUR OWN INTERPRETATION FROM A VERY NARROW POINT OF VIEW AND ANYONE, NO MATTER WHAT, IS NOT FANATICISM AGAINST OTHER RELIGION, BUT, AGAIN, IT'S YOUR OWN RELIGION, YOUR OWN FAITH. IT'S ONLY A VERY NARROW WAY OF INTERPRETATION, SO THAT'S WHAT IS DANGER. IF WE LOOK THROUGH THE HISTORY, WE FOUND HOW MUCH HARM WAS INFLICTED IN HUMANITY BECAUSE OF FANATICISM. SO I THINK THAT'S THE REAL ENEMY IN US AND THIS IS THE REAL ENEMY IN ANY RELIGION OR ANY GROUP.

REV. WILLIAM M. CAMPBELL>> THERE'S AN ADDITIONAL DIMENSION ALSO. THE ADDITIONAL DIMENSION HAS TO DO WITH THE FUNDAMENTAL RESPECT FOR LIFE, FOR ALL OF LIFE, WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE A PARTICULAR UNDERSTANDING OF YOUR FAITH AS INFORMING LIFE. THERE'S STILL THE NEED TO BE RESPECTFUL OF THE LEGITIMACY OF LIFE OF OTHER PEOPLE. YOU MAY NOT NECESSARILY AGREE WITH THEIR RELIGION. YOU MAY NOT NECESSARILY AGREE WITH THEIR FAITH. SO IT'S NOT NECESSARILY A MATTER OF SAYING THAT YOU HAVE TO AGREE WITH ANOTHER PERSON'S FAITH, BUT YOU HAVE NEED TO RESPECT THEIR HUMANITY. I THINK WHAT WE HAVE SEEN, CLEARLY IN THIS SITUATION, IS AN UTTER DISREGARD FOR THE HUMANITY OF OTHERS AND THUS AN ACTION THAT VIOLATES HUMANITY. I BELIEVE THAT, WHEN YOU VIOLATE HUMANITY, THEN YOU VIOLATE GOD.

RABBI LAURA GELLER>> I THINK THAT ALL OF OUR TRADITIONS BELIEVE THAT ALL HUMAN BEINGS ARE CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF GOD. SO WHEN AN INNOCENT HUMAN BEING IS KILLED, THE IMAGE OF GOD IS IN FACT HARMED.

REV. WILLIAM M. CAMPBELL>> YES.

MAHMOUD ABDEL-BASET>> WELL, IF I GO BACK TO THE HISTORY IN MY RELIGION, AND I'M SURE IT'S IN THE OLD TESTAMENT BECAUSE IT'S ALSO MENTIONED IN GENESIS, THE FIRST LAW THAT GOD MANDATED ON MANKIND WAS WHEN THERE WAS ONLY ADAM AND EVE AND SAID DON'T TOUCH THAT TREE. THE SECOND LAW THAT CAME TO EARTH FROM GOD WHEN THE TWO CHILDREN OF ADAM, CAIN AND ABEL, ONE KILLED THE OTHER AND THEN GOD WOULD REVEAL IN THE KORAN, AND IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, THOU SHALT NOT KILL. IT'S ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, IT'S ABSOLUTELY HORRENDOUS AND IT DOES NOT NEED AN EXPLANATION. WASTE OF LIFE. LIFE IS A TRUST FROM GOD IN OUR HANDS. IN OUR TRADITION, A PERSON WHO COMMITS SUICIDE OR COMMITS MURDER AGAINST OTHER SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN THE LAST RITES BEFORE BURIAL.

JESS>> LET ME ASK THREE APPARENTLY GOD-LOVING, GOD-FEARING PEOPLE, HOW WE SHOULD HAVE RESPONDED TO THE TERROR THAT WE HAVE SEEN IN NEW YORK?

REV. WILLIAM M. CAMPBELL>> I THINK THE FIRST ELEMENT OF RECKONING, AGAIN, MOVES IN THE DIRECTION THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. THE FIRST DIRECTION IS RECOGNIZING THE VALUE OF LIFE, RECOGNIZING THE TRAGEDY THAT HAS COME ABOUT IN TERMS OF THAT LIFE AND THEREFOR RECOGNIZING THAT STEPS NEED TO BE TAKEN. NOT OUT OF VENGEANCE, BUT OUT OF A SENSE OF, FIRST OF ALL, PROTECTING PEOPLE AND --

JESS>> -- HOW DO WE KEEP IT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN?

REV. WILLIAM M. CAMPBELL>> -- AND THEN I THINK IT'S AT THAT POINT THAT THE KINDS OF ACTIONS, EVEN IF THEY BE MILITARISTIC ACTIONS, NEED TO BE TAKEN AND RECOGNIZING THAT THAT'S THE ISSUE. THAT WE'RE ACTING TO PROTECT FUTURE DISREGARD OF LIFE, FUTURE VIOLATIONS OF LIFE. SO IT'S NOT -- YOU KNOW, MY FAITH TEACHES ME THAT VENGEANCE IS THE LORD'S AND HE WILL REPAY. SO IT'S NOT ABOUT REVENGE. IT'S NOT ABOUT REPAYING. BUT IT IS ABOUT PROTECTING LIFE. IT IS ABOUT PROTECTING. I THINK THIS IS WHY WE'RE SEEING PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD BEGINNING TO RESPOND BECAUSE THEY RECOGNIZE THAT, AGAIN, IT WAS A FUNDAMENTAL DISREGARD OF LIFE AND ACTIONS HAVE TO BE TAKEN TO BRING ABOUT AN END TO THE KINDS OF PATTERNS AND PRACTICES AND STRATEGIES THAT WOULD DESTROY LIVES IN THE WAY THAT THIS HAPPENED.

JESS>> THE ACTIONS THAT MAY BE TAKEN UNDOUBTEDLY WILL CLAIM MANY, MANY LIVES.

RABBI LAURA GELLER>> IT'S VERY IMPORTANT, I THINK, THAT WE RECOGNIZE THAT THIS WAS DONE TO AMERICA BECAUSE THE PEOPLE THAT DID THIS HATE WHAT AMERICA STANDS FOR AND WE NEED TO BE VIGILANT TO RECOGNIZE THAT WHAT WE STAND FOR IS WONDERFUL AND IMPORTANT AND NOT ALLOW OURSELVES TO BE CARRIED AWAY AND DO THINGS THAT ARE NOT PART OF WHAT AMERICA STANDS FOR. WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT PLURALISM IS PART OF WHAT THE AMERICAN DREAM IS ABOUT AND THAT CIVIL LIBERTIES AND CIVIL RIGHTS NEED TO BE MAINTAINED AND SUPPORTED AND WE NEED TO BE VERY CAREFUL THAT, IN THE RUSH OF ANGER AND RAGE, WE DON'T ACT OUT OF THE WORST PARTS OF OURSELVES, BUT ONLY THE BEST PARTS OF OURSELVES.

JESS>> AND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT DOMESTIC ACTION OR FOREIGN ACTION?

RABBI LAURA GELLER>> I THINK ALTOGETHER. WE NEED TO STAND FOR THE BEST KIND OF PATRIOTISM, THE VALUES THAT MAKE AMERICA THE WONDERFUL COUNTRY THAT IT IS.

JESS>> MAHMOUD, I WOULD ASSUME YOU ARE MOST SENSITIVE TO THIS ISSUE OF RETALIATION?

MAHMOUD ABDEL-BASET>> I DON'T LIKE THE WORD RETALIATION. I WOULD LIKE THE WORD ESTABLISHING JUSTICE. STAND UP FOR GOODNESS AND STAND UP AGAINST EVIL. SO THE WORD RETALIATION IS A REACTIONARY WORD, BUT THE WORD JUSTICE MEANS THAT YOU GET THE TRUTH THROUGH AND YOU TAKE WHATEVER ACTION TO ESTABLISH JUSTICE FOR ALL PEOPLE. LET'S STAND UP FOR WHAT MY RELIGION CALLS FOR AND WHAT AMERICAN VALUES STAND FOR: LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL. AND IF THESE PEOPLE COMMITTED CRIMES AGAINST LIBERTY OR JUSTICE, THEY HAVE TO BE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE.

JESS>> WE ARE VIRTUALLY OUT OF TIME, BUT I WOULD LIKE IF ANY OF YOU WOULD LIKE TO RESPOND TO THE REPORTED COMMENTS OF THE REVEREND JERRY FALWELL, COMMENTS HE HAS SINCE APOLOGIZED FOR, AGREED WITH BY PAT ROBERTSON, THAT SUGGEST THIS WAS GOD'S WRATH BEING VISITED UPON US BECAUSE OF GAYS, ABORTION, OTHER SECULAR INFLUENCES?

RABBI LAURA GELLER>> IT'S AN ABSOLUTE OUTRAGE. WE'RE PLEASED TO HEAR THAT THEY HAVE TAKEN THOSE STATEMENTS BACK. THE IDEA THAT THIS IS GOD ACTING SEEMS TO ME TO BE JUST ABSOLUTELY OUTRAGEOUS. THIS IS HUMAN BEINGS DOING SOMETHING TO OTHER HUMAN BEINGS, NOT GOD DOING SOMETHING.

JESS>> REVEREND MR. CAMPBELL, RABBI GELLER AND MAHMOUD ABDEL-BASET, THANK YOU FOR SHARING YOUR THOUGHTS WITH US TONIGHT.

PATT MORRISON HAS BEEN THINKING ABOUT ANOTHER WAY SOME PEOPLE ARE COPING WITH TERRORISM. THEY'RE CASHING IN, IN TONIGHT'S INFINITELY MORRISON.

PATT>> IN THE LAST WEEK OR SO, THE PAGES OF THE NATION'S NEWSPAPERS HAVE BEEN FULL OF NEARLY EMPTY PAGES. LARGE ADS TAKEN OUT BY COMPANIES LIKE MERRILL LYNCH AND SEARS AND RADIO SHACK WITH SMALL PRINT MESSAGES OF GRIEF AND CONDOLENCES FOLLOWING THE ATTACKS IN WASHINGTON AND NEW YORK. NOW, AS THE DAYS BECOME WEEKS, THERE ARE OTHER KINDS OF ADS TOO. THE USUAL, WITH PICTURES AND PRICES, BUT SOME WITH A DIFFERENCE.

THE TERRORIST ATTACKS TRIGGERED A SURGE IN DEMAND FOR FLAGS AS A SHOW OF SUPPORT AND LOYALTY AND THEY ALSO CREATED AN INSTANT MARKETING OPPORTUNITY. THERE ARE THE SMALL-SCALE ENTREPRENEURS, THE STREET-CORNER FLAG VENDORS, THE KIDS SELLING FLAGS INSTEAD OF LEMONADE, AND THE L.A. MAN WHO CALLS HIS BUSINESS "DISASTERWARE". HE SOLD QUAKE SHIRTS AFTER THE NORTHRIDGE EARTHQUAKE, O.J. SIMPSON WATCHES OUTSIDE THE CRIMINAL COURTHOUSE, AND NOW HE'S SELLING COMMEMORATIVE TERRORIST ATTACK T-SHIRTS.

THEN THERE'S THE UP-MARKET, PATRIOTIC MARKETING. A FAMOUS JEWELER ADVERTISES A RUBY, DIAMOND AND SAPPHIRE FLAG PIN FOR THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. AND THIS DESIGNER, A WEEK AFTER THE HORROR, WAS SELLING THIS STARS AND STRIPES SWEATER FOR $89. THE OLD NAVY CLOTHING COMPANY IS SHIPPING OUT THOUSANDS OF FLAG T-SHIRTS AND DONATING ALL PROCEEDS TO DISASTER RELIEF. I LOOKED ALL OVER THIS AD FOR SOME PRINT TO THAT EFFECT AND FOUND NONE.

THIS IS A CAPITALISTIC COUNTRY, QED. IRONICALLY, NOTHING COULD BRING THAT POINT HOME MORE CLEARLY THAN THE FACT THAT FINANCIAL INVESTIGATORS HERE AND IN EUROPE ARE LOOKING INTO THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE SAME TERRORISTS WHO MASTERMINDED THE SEPTEMBER 11 ATTACKS MAY ALSO HAVE GOTTEN RICH ON THEM. BY SELLING SHORT, TO PROFIT FROM THE DROP IN THE STOCK MARKET, A DROP THEY THEMSELVES ENGINEERED WITH THE MASS MURDER THEY SO CAREFULLY PLANNED.

AS FOR FLAG MERCHANDISE, IT'S ALWAYS BEEN AROUND, BUT IT DOESN'T ALWAYS FLY HIGH. A CATALOG I GOT THIS SUMMER SELLS FLAG COCKTAIL NAPKINS TO MOP UP SPILLED DRINKS AND FLAG DOORMATS TO WIPE YOUR MUDDY FEET ON. I'M SURE THAT SALES ARE DOING WELL. SO THERE IS ALWAYS DEMAND AND ALWAYS SUPPLY, BUT IN SUCH DELICATE AND PAINED TIMES AS THESE, IF WE'VE EVER HAD SUCH TIMES AS THESE, THERE ARE ALSO DELICATE ISSUES TO CONSIDER. JUST WHAT IS PROFIT, WHAT IS PROFITEERING, AND WHAT IS PATRIOTISM?

JESS>> THE SEARCH FOR OSAMA BIN LADEN HAS FOCUSED AMERICA'S ATTENTION ON AFGHANISTAN, BUT SOME HAVE BEEN WATCHING THAT COUNTRY FOR YEARS. NOT BECAUSE OF TERRORISM, BUT BECAUSE OF THE PLIGHT OF AFGHANI WOMEN. JOINING US TONIGHT IS KATHERINE SPILLAR OF THE FEMINIST MAJORITY, A GROUP THAT HAS LONG PROTESTED THE TALIBAN'S HARSH TREATMENT OF WOMEN IN AFGHANISTAN, AND PATT MORRISON IS BACK WITH US TO JOIN IN THE CONVERSATION.

THIS IS NOT A NEW FIGHT FOR YOU?

KATHERINE SPILLAR>> NO, IT'S NOT. WE FIRST SOUNDED THE ALARM NOW ALMOST FIVE YEARS AGO WHEN THE TALIBAN SEIZED POWER VERY BRUTALLY. THIS IS AN ARMED MILITIA THAT TOOK OVER AFGHANISTAN AND ONE OF THEIR FIRST ACTIONS WAS TO ESTABLISH A STATE OF GENDER APARTHEID WHERE WOMEN WERE FIRED FROM THEIR JOBS AND NO LONGER ALLOWED TO WORK OUTSIDE OF THE HOME.

GIRLS WERE SENT HOME FROM SCHOOL AND NOT ALLOWED TO BE EDUCATED. WOMEN FROM THE UNIVERSITY SENT HOME. WOMEN HAVE BEEN CONFINED TO THEIR HOMES UNLESS -- THEY CAN ONLY LEAVE IF THEY WEAR THIS SHROUDED BURQA WITH JUST A NARROW SLIT TO SEE THROUGH AND THEY'RE ACCOMPANIED BY AN ADULT MALE RELATIVE. OTHERWISE THEY MUST SPEND THEIR LIVES INSIDE THE HOMES WITH THE WINDOWS PAINTED OVER SO THAT NO MAN CAN SEE INSIDE.

PATT>> SO IN A STROKE, THE TALIBAN CUT OFF HALF OF THE BRAINPOWER, HALF OF THE TEACHERS, HALF OF THE DOCTORS IN AFGHANISTAN. WHAT YOU WEAR ON YOUR LAPEL IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE BURQA, THE SCREEN, THAT WOMEN HAVE TO WEAR OVER THEIR FACE?

KATHERINE SPILLAR>> IT'S A MESH, A MESH COVERING OVER THE EYES, AND THAT'S THE ONLY WAY THEY SEE THE WORLD WHEN THEY LEAVE THEIR HOMES. THEY TOOK THEM OUT OF SOCIETY. THESE WERE THE WOMEN WHO WERE THE TEACHERS, SEVENTY PERCENT OF TEACHERS IN AFGHANISTAN. FORTY PERCENT OF THE DOCTORS. HALF THE GOVERNMENT WORKERS. WOMEN WERE JUDGES, THEY WERE LAWYERS, THEY HELPED SOCIETY FUNCTION AS IT WAS BECAUSE AFGHANISTAN'S BEEN IN A STATE OF WAR. NOW THEY'RE NON-CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS OF THIS SOCIETY. WE HAD SOUNDED THE ALARM BECAUSE WE DIDN'T WANT THE UNITED STATES TO RECOGNIZE THE TALIBAN AS ITS LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT, AND WE DIDN'T WANT THE OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD TO.

JESS>> WELL, YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT WE SUPPORTED THE TALIBAN.

KATHERINE SPILLAR>> WE DID. WE HELPED CREATE THEM WHEN WE WERE PART OF THE COLD WAR AGAINST THE SOVIET UNION, THE TALIBAN AND OSAMA BIN LADEN, ONE AND THE SAME, PART OF THE MUJAHIDEEN THAT WE HELPED FUND. WE SOUNDED THE ALARM BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT A REGIME THAT SO TERRORIZED ITS OWN PEOPLE WOULD BE THE BREEDING GROUND FOR TERRORISM THAT WOULD SPILL BEYOND ITS BORDER.

PATT>> AND TERRORISM STARTED AT HOME IN THIS CASE.

KATHERINE SPILLAR>> IT ABSOLUTELY DID. WOMEN HAVE BEEN TERRORIZED BY THIS TALIBAN REGIME NOW FOR FIVE YEARS. WE OWE IT TO THEM TO HELP LIBERATE THEM NOW AND TO LIBERATE THE AFGHAN PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN TERRORIZED BY THIS TALIBAN REGIME.

JESS>> SO, IN ADDITION TO GOING IN AFTER OSAMA BIN LADEN, WE SHOULD ALSO DESTROY THE TALIBAN?

KATHERINE SPILLAR>> WE MUST RE-ESTABLISH THE CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY THAT AFGHANISTAN ONCE ENJOYED AND RECONSTRUCT WOMEN'S FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHTS THERE SO THAT THEY CAN EQUALLY PARTICIPATE IN THE REBUILDING OF AFGHANISTAN INTO A FREE SOCIETY.

PATT>> THE TRICKY PART OF THIS WAS ALSO A CONCERN IN SAUDI ARABIA DURING THE GULF WAR. IT WAS A COUNTRY WHERE WOMEN WERE NOT ALLOWED TO DRIVE. THERE WERE A LOT OF THINGS WOMEN COULD NOT DO AND YET THE SAUDIS WERE OUR ALLIES. WE SENT WOMEN SOLDIERS INTO SAUDI ARABIA, WHICH OFFENDED A NUMBER OF BELIEVERS THERE. HOW DEEPLY CAN YOU INTRUDE INTO THE BELIEFS OF A CULTURE ON BEHALF OF PEOPLE LIKE THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN?

KATHERINE SPILLAR>> THESE ARE NOT CULTURAL PRACTICES. THESE ARE TERRORIST, TOTALITARIAN PRACTICES THAT WERE FOREIGN TO AFGHANISTAN BEFORE THE TALIBAN CAME INTO IT AS A CONQUERING ARMY. I THINK NOW THE UNITED STATES MUST RE-EXAMINE ITS FOREIGN POLICY NOT ONLY WITH RESPECT TO AFGHANISTAN AND THAT WHOLE REGION, PAKISTAN, SAUDI ARABIA.

PAKISTAN AND SAUDI ARABIA ARE TWO OF THE ONLY THREE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE BEEN SUPPORTING THE TALIBAN, FUNDING THE TALIBAN, KEEPING IT PROPPED UP. I THINK WE'VE GOT TO TAKE A SERIOUS LOOK. HOW CAN WE SUPPORT REGIMES THAT ARE SUCH TERRORISTS AGAINST THEIR OWN PEOPLE?

JESS>> YOU REGARD WOMEN WHO WEAR THE VEIL AS IT ALWAYS BEING FORCED UPON THEM OR DO SOME OF THEM EMBRACE THE FAITH THAT REQUIRES THAT?

KATHERINE SPILLAR>> IT MUST ALWAYS BE A MATTER OF CHOICE. BUT FOR THE WOMEN OF AFGHANISTAN, MANY OF THEM, IN THE CITIES ESPECIALLY, THESE WERE COSMOPOLITAN CITIES. THEY DIDN'T OWN THESE GARMENTS CALLED THE BURQA. THEY HADN'T SEEN THEM, IN MANY CASES. THEY WERE NOT PART OF THEIR CULTURAL OR PART OF THEIR TRADITION OR PART OF THEIR RELIGION. THEY HAVE BEEN FORCED ON THEM VERY BRUTALLY BECAUSE, IF YOU LEAVE YOUR HOME WITHOUT A BURQA, YOU ARE SUBJECT TO BEING BEATEN. IN SOME CASES, SO BRUTALLY THAT WOMEN HAVE LOST THEIR LIVES.

PATT>> AND THEY'RE VERY EXPENSIVE AND THERE IS NO WAY TO BUY THEM, FOR SOME OF THESE WOMEN, SO THEY BECOME CONFINED TO THEIR HOMES.

KATHERINE SPILLAR>> SOME OF THE WOMEN WHO ARE SO DESTITUTE AND POOR NOW BECAUSE THEY CAN'T WORK, THEY HAVE NO WAY TO SUPPORT THEIR FAMILIES. WE HAVE REPORTS THAT SOME TWENTY AND THIRTY WOMEN SOMETIMES ARE SHARING THE SAME BURQA.

PATT>> JIMMY CARTER'S NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI, WAS QUOTED BEING ASKED WHY DOES HE REGRET TRAINING FUTURE TERRORISTS. HE SAID, "WHAT WAS MORE IMPORTANT IN WORLD HISTORY? THE TALIBAN OR THE FALL OF THE SOVIET EMPIRE?" HOW IS IT THAT WOMEN AND ISSUES LIKE HUMAN RIGHTS SEEM NOT TO FACTOR IN SOME OF THE DECISIONS THAT ARE MADE AT THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT AND CERTAINLY IN THE CASE HERE?

KATHERINE SPILLAR>> THAT SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN THE CHOICE. WE SHOULD NEVER HAVE WALKED AWAY FROM THIS REGION ONCE THE SOVIET UNION WITHDREW AND ALLOWED THIS TALIBAN REGIME TO TAKE HOLD. WOMEN'S HUMAN RIGHTS ARE FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHTS AND, TO IGNORE THEM, WE NOW KNOW IS AT THE PERIL OF THE WORLD.

JESS>> THE QUESTION IS, DID WE KNOW -- WHEN WE WERE SUPPORTING THE TALIBAN AGAINST THE SOVIET UNION, DID WE KNOW THAT THEY ESPOUSED THESE EXTREMELY RADICAL VIEWS WHERE WOMEN ARE CONCERNED AND DID THEY SIMPLY IMPOSE THIS AFTER THEY GAINED POWER?

KATHERINE SPILLAR>> THEY IMPOSED THESE SANCTIONS AND THESE RESTRICTIONS AFTER THEY GAINED POWER IN AFGHANISTAN AND I DON'T THINK ANYONE COULD HAVE EVER IMAGINED THIS WOULD BE THE END RESULT. BUT WE WALKED AWAY FROM AN AREA THAT WAS UNSTABLE, ALLOWED IT TO DESCEND INTO A CIVIL WAR AND ALLOWED MANY OF THE FACTIONS TO DENY WOMEN FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHTS. WE'VE GOT TO PICK OUR ALLIES MORE CAREFULLY.

PATT>> QUICKLY, KATHERINE SPILLAR, I HAVE HEARD THAT THERE IS A HYPOCRISY AFOOT. THE TALIBAN WHO REFUSE TO EDUCATE THE WOMEN THERE IN AFGHANISTAN NONETHELESS SEND THEIR OWN DAUGHTERS, THEIR OWN FAMILY MEMBERS, OUT TO BE EDUCATED?

KATHERINE SPILLAR>> WE HAVE HEARD THAT AS WELL. MANY OF THEM DO NOT LIVE BY THEIR OWN RULES.

JESS>> AND, AGAIN, GOING BACK TO SAUDI ARABIA, WOULD WE EXPECT ANY REFORM THERE?

KATHERINE SPILLAR>> THE FEMINIST COMMUNITY, NATIONWIDE AND WORLDWIDE, HAS SPOKEN OUT FOR THE WOMEN IN SAUDI ARABIA AND I THINK WE HAVE GOT TO NOW UNDERSTAND, IN THE CONTEXT OF WHAT'S HAPPENED, THE IMPORTANCE OF WOMEN'S HUMAN RIGHTS IN THE LARGER EQUATION. NO LONGER CAN WE IGNORE REGIMES THAT TERRORIZE THEIR OWN WOMEN AND THINK THAT IT WON'T COME TO HAUNT US IN THE FUTURE.

PATT>> ARE THERE MUSLIM WOMEN INVOLVED IN YOUR MOVEMENT?

KATHERINE SPILLAR>> YES, AND WE'RE VERY CLOSE TO MANY AFGHAN WOMEN AND IN PAKISTAN AS WELL AS AFGHANISTAN. THIS IS A UNITED MOVEMENT ON BEHALF OF FEMINISM EVERYWHERE. 

PATT>> DO THEY DO SO AT THEIR OWN PERIL?

KATHERINE SPILLAR>> THEY DO, AT THE RISK OF THEIR OWN LIVES.

JESS>> THANK YOU, KATHERINE SPILLAR, AND ALSO THANK YOU, PATT MORRISON.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT'S BROADCAST. STAY TUNED AT 8:00 P.M. FOR A PBS SPECIAL, "AMERICA RESPONDS, A NATIONAL CONVERSATION". IT'S A NATIONWIDE TOWN HALL WITH VOICES FROM ACROSS AMERICA HOSTED LOCALLY BY MY CO-ANCHOR, VAL ZAVALA. NOW FOR ALL OF US HERE AT LIFE AND TIMES, GOOD NIGHT.

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