9/07/01

LC010907

VAL>> ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT --

JESS>> TONIGHT WE'LL FOCUS ON A BURNING ISSUE: REPARATIONS FOR AFRICAN-AMERICANS. WHAT'S THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS FOR THE PAIN AND SUFFERING CAUSED BY SLAVERY? DOES THE COUNTRY OWE AN APOLOGY TO THE PEOPLE WHOSE ANCESTORS WERE HELD AS SLAVES? AND ARE THEY ALSO DUE CASH PAYMENTS FOR DAMAGES?

VAL>> ANOTHER MAJOR ISSUE FOR SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA IS IMMIGRATION. PRESIDENT BUSH AND MEXICO'S PRESIDENT VICENTE FOX TALKED ABOUT IT THIS WEEK, BUT MANY CONSERVATIVES DIDN'T LIKE WHAT THEY HEARD.

IRA MEHLMAN>> AND ONE OF THE PROPOSALS ON THE TABLE IS WHAT THEY CALL A GUEST WORKER PROGRAM, BUT IN EFFECT, IT WOULD BE AN AMNESTY FOR ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS WHO ARE LIVING IN THIS COUNTRY. THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT THE RESULT WOULD BE THE SAME. MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO CAME TO THE UNITED STATES ILLEGALLY, SETTLED HERE ILLEGALLY, WOULD BE REWARDED WITH PERMANENT RESIDENCE.

JESS>> AND WE'LL LOOK AT A CONTROVERSIAL NAVY SONAR SYSTEM. CRITICS CLAIM IT'S A MAJOR THREAT TO WHALES. SOUND WAVES FROM THE NAVY'S SONAR HAVE BEEN LINKED TO SEVERAL RECENT WHALE INJURIES AND DEATHS, BUT CAN THE NAVY AFFORD TO STOP USING AN UNDERSEA TECHNOLOGY THAT'S ONE OF THE KEYS TO OUR NATIONAL DEFENSE?

VAL>> THESE STORIES ARE ALL STRAIGHT AHEAD ON LIFE AND TIMES.

LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE FOLLOWING FOUNDATIONS:

THE JAMES IRVINE FOUNDATION
WHICH IS DEDICATED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF AN INFORMED CALIFORNIA CITIZENRY.

THE L.K. WHITTIER FOUNDATION
DEDICATED TO IMPROVING THE QUALITY OF LIFE BY SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE ENDEAVORS IN THE FIELDS OF MEDICINE, HEALTH, SCIENCE AND EDUCATION.

AND THE CALIFORNIA COMMUNITY FOUNDATION
UNDERWRITING THE SPANISH LANGUAGE TRANSLATION OF LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

VAL>> GOOD EVENING, I'M VAL ZAVALA.

JESS>> AND I'M JESS MARLOW.

WHEN THE CIVIL WAR ENDED IN 1865, THIS NATION PROMISED TO REPAY SLAVES BY GIVING THEM FORTY ACRES AND A MULE. LAND WAS SUPPOSED TO BE SET ASIDE ON THE COASTS OF GEORGIA AND SOUTH CAROLINA FOR THOUSANDS OF NEWLY-FREED FAMILIES. BUT THE PLAN FELL VICTIM TO POLITICS AND THE FORMER SLAVES NEVER GOT WHAT WAS PROMISED.

VAL>> THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF THE CALL FOR REPARATIONS. IT'S THE WORD FOR THE COMPENSATION SOME AFRICAN-AMERICANS FEEL THIS COUNTRY OWES THEM. THIS WEEK THE ISSUE CAUGHT FIRE AT THE U.N. CONFERENCE ON RACISM IN SOUTH AFRICA. LEADERS OF SEVERAL AFRICAN NATIONS SAID AMERICA AND OTHERS WOULD LIKE TO FORGET THAT SLAVERY WAS A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.

JESS>> LATELY THE REPARATION MOVEMENT HAS GONE FROM A FRINGE ISSUE OF SOCIETY AND HAS BECOME MAINSTREAM. HERE TO TALK ABOUT IT IS DR. EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON, A LONG-TIME ACTIVIST AND RADIO COMMENTATOR IN LOS ANGELES. HE'S WRITTEN SEVERAL ARTICLES SUPPORTING REPARATIONS. AND, AS ALWAYS, OUR POLITICAL REGULARS, HUGH HEWITT AND KERMAN MADDOX ARE JOINING IN.

YOU HAVE LONG SUPPORTED REPARATIONS. IT'S NOW SEVEN OR EIGHT GENERATIONS SINCE SLAVERY, 150-SOME YEARS. HOW DO WE GO ABOUT IT?

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> WELL, ACTUALLY, LET ME JUST KIND OF CORRECT A LITTLE BIT. I HAVEN'T LONG-SUPPORTED IT. AS A MATTER OF FACT, FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME, I'VE BEEN VERY DOUBTFUL ABOUT IT, BUT THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, A COUPLE OF THINGS HAVE HAPPENED.

NUMBER ONE, WE'VE SEEN JAPANESE-AMERICANS OBVIOUSLY SOME RECOMPENSED FOR WRONGS DURING WORLD WAR II. OBVIOUSLY, HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS, SWISS BANKS, GERMAN BANKS, SWEDISH BANKS, THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT, REPARATIONS THERE. NOW WE SEE FILIPINO VETERANS, NATIVE-AMERICANS, OBVIOUSLY THE LAND THEFT AND SO FORTH.

SO THIS HAS BECOME NOW A MAJOR, MAJOR LEGAL ISSUE AND PEOPLE ARE SAYING, WAIT A MINUTE. IF ALL OF THESE OTHER GROUPS, FOR HISTORIC WRONGS, ARE GETTING SOME KIND OF COMPENSATION AND REDRESS LEGALLY, MORALLY AND ETHICALLY TOO, WHAT ABOUT AFRICAN-AMERICANS?

JESS>> BUT IN EACH OF THOSE INSTANCES, THE REPARATIONS WENT TO THE VICTIMS THEMSELVES. THIS IS MUCH DIFFERENT.

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> OKAY, NOW YOU GOT TO REMEMBER SOMETHING. IT WENT TO THE VICTIMS, BUT MANY AFRICAN-AMERICANS SAY, WAIT A MINUTE. WE NOT ONLY WERE VICTIMS OF A SYSTEM THAT WAS IN PLACE IN THIS COUNTRY WITH THE FULL SANCTION OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT FOR 200 YEARS, SLAVERY, BUT ALSO OF THE NEAR CENTURY AFTER THE END OF LEGAL SLAVERY, NAMELY SEGREGATION, JIM CROW, DISCRIMINATION, SO ALL OF THE INEQUALITIES THAT CAME ABOUT, REMEMBER, IT'S A LONG TRAIN OF ABUSES THERE. SO EVEN NOW, GOING INTO THE 21ST CENTURY, STILL MANY OF THE DESCENDANTS OF SLAVES, THEY ARGUMENT IS, ARE STILL SUFFERING BECAUSE OF THE HISTORIC WRONGS AND INJUSTICE OF NOT ONLY DISCRIMINATION, BUT SLAVERY TOO.

KERMAN>> EARL, LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION BECAUSE REPARATIONS HAVE BEEN TALKED ABOUT IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN COMMUNITY FOR YEARS. YOU AND I TALKED ABOUT THAT, BUT IS THEN CONSIDERED A FRINGE ISSUE. YOU KNOW, THOSE PEOPLE ON THE POLITICAL FRINGE HAVE TALKED ABOUT IT. MAINSTREAM PEOPLE HAVE NEVER REALLY EMBRACED THE ISSUE. SOMEHOW THIS THING HAS MOVED TO A MAINSTREAM ISSUE. HOW DID REPARATIONS BECOME A MAINSTREAM ISSUE AND WHAT HAPPENED?

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> WELL, TWO REASONS. NUMBER ONE, RANDALL ROBINSON. HE WROTE THE BOOK, "THE DEBT". RANDALL ROBINSON, PRESIDENT OF TRANSAFRICA, HAS A LOT OF CREDIBILITY IN TERMS OF THE SOUTH AFRICA MOVEMENT AGAINST APARTHEID, VERY WELL POLITICALLY CONNECTED, HIS BOOK BECAME AN INSTANT BESTSELLER. SO IT'S ALMOST LIKE NOW THE BLACK MIDDLE-CLASS EMBRACED IT. YOU'RE RIGHT. IT WAS A FRINGE ISSUE.

THE SECOND THING IS, I THINK, AFRICAN NATIONS WE'RE SEEING AT WORLD CONFERENCE AGAINST RACISM. IT'S NOT AFRICAN-AMERICANS THAT ARE DRIVING THE REPARATIONS ISSUE. IT'S NOW AFRICAN NATIONS AND THEIR LEADERS. SO NOW IT HAS REALLY PROJECTED OUT TO BECOME AN INTERNATIONAL ISSUE.

VAL>> BUT I'D LIKE TO GET BACK TO THE ARGUMENT THAT, YOU KNOW, THE SLAVES WHO WERE THE REAL VICTIMS ARE NO LONGER ALIVE. THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS HOLOCAUST VICTIMS. IT'S NOT THE SAME AS THE JAPANESE WHO WERE INTERNED. YOU KNOW, THERE ARE RAMIFICATIONS THAT GO ON FOR ALL SORTS OF GENERATIONS AND WE CAN'T COMPENSATE EVERYBODY BECAUSE THREE GENERATIONS AGO SOMETHING BAD HAPPENED IN SOCIETY. I MEAN, IT JUST DOESN'T SEEM TO LINK UP.

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> WELL, IT DOES BECAUSE, REMEMBER, THERE'S A CONTINUITY THERE BETWEEN THE SLAVE PAST AND MANY OF THE INEQUITIES THAT WE SEE TODAY. FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN --

VAL>> -- SO WHY DON'T WE ADDRESS THE INEQUITIES? WHY DON'T WE SAY, OKAY, IF THERE'S INEQUALITY IN TERMS OF EDUCATION AND INCOME AND MEDICAL CARE, WHY DON'T WE JUST GO STRAIGHT FOR THOSE INEQUALITIES? THIS VERY DIFFICULT REPARATIONS ROUTE WHICH WAS POLITICALLY UNPOPULAR AND VERY COMPLICATED LEGALLY IS A LONG WAY TO GO ABOUT IT.

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> WELL, BECAUSE OF THE RACIAL TIE ON THAT. IN OTHER WORDS, IT JUST DIDN'T COME ABOUT FROM THE SKY. IN OTHER WORDS, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE INEQUITIES OR RE-SEGREGATION, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT FAILING PUBLIC SCHOOLS, THE DRUG CRISIS, RACIAL PROFILING, INEQUITIES IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND THE POVERTY, THERE'S A RACIAL LINK TO IT FROM PAST TO PRESENT, SO THAT'S WHERE THE LINK IS.

VAL>> BUT HOW A CHECK TO, AS THEY OFTEN SAY --

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> -- NO CHECK.

VAL>> NO CHECK, OKAY.

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> NO, NO CHECK.

VAL>> BUT HOW WOULD THAT ADDRESS THOSE INEQUALITIES? HOW'S THAT?

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> I THINK THE THING THAT RANDALL ROBINSON CAME UP WITH, AND, BY THE WAY, I ADDRESS TO, IS NOT A CHECK TO INDIVIDUALS.

VAL>> I SEE.

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> I THINK THAT'S A MISNOMER AND I THINK THAT'S A DELIBERATE DISTORTION. IT'S LIKE EVERYBODY'S GOING TO GET A $10,000 CHECK --

VAL>> -- INCLUDING OPRAH WINFREY. (LAUGHTER)

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> MICHAEL JORDAN, YOU KNOW, MICHAEL JACKSON, I MEAN --

VAL>> -- (LAUGHTER) THAT'S NOT THE IDEA.

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> -- YOU KNOW, WHITNEY HOUSTON, I MEAN --

KERMAN>> -- KERMAN MADDOX.

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> -- KERMAN MADDOX, EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON, JESS MARLOW (LAUGHTER). NO, WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IS THIS. SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF AN EDUCATION, A HEALTH FUND, A SOCIAL POLICY FUND, A BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT FUND, A DRUG INTERDICTION FUND. IN OTHER WORDS, THE POOREST OF THE POOR. I MEAN, THE EXTREME POOREST OF THE POOR TRAPPED IN FAILING SCHOOLS, BELOW THE POVERTY LINE, OBVIOUSLY DRUG ADDICTED, ALCOHOL PROBLEMS, HEALTH PROBLEMS. SOMETHING THAT WOULD GO TO HELP THEM. NOT A CHECK FOR KERMAN MADDOX -- SORRY, KERMAN -- NOT A CHECK FOR EARL AND CERTAINLY NOT A CHECK FOR THE OPRAHS OF THE WORLD, SO TO HELP THE POOREST OF THE POOR.

HUGH>> YOU SAY IT'S NOT A MARGINAL ISSUE ANY MORE. CAN YOU NAME FOR ME ONE MAINSTREAM POLITICIAN NOT AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WHO HAS EMBRACED THIS CAUSE WHO IS IN ELECTED OFFICE AND SEEKING TO RETURN TO ELECTED OFFICE? BECAUSE I'M NOT AWARE OF A SINGLE ONE.

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> IRONICALLY, BILL CLINTON CAME VERY CLOSE. HE CAME VERY CLOSE, BUT --

HUGH>> -- CLOSE, BUT NOT ONE, AM I CORRECT?

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> BUT THE FACT THAT HE EVEN CAME CLOSE, REMEMBER, NO SITTING PRESIDENT EVER WOULD HAVE DARED, SINCE ABRAHAM LINCOLN --

HUGH>> -- WHAT ABOUT GRAY DAVIS? HAS GRAY DAVIS ENDORSED REPARATIONS?

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> YOU KNOW WHAT? INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, NO. BUT WHAT HE DID WAS, DO YOU REMEMBER THE BILL THAT DID PASS OUT OF THE CALIFORNIA STATE LEGISLATURE THAT WENT AFTER INSURANCE COMPANIES? REMEMBER THAT? DAVIS --

VAL>> -- WHO BENEFITED FROM SLAVERY.

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> WHO BENEFITED FROM SLAVERY. DAVIS ENDORSED THAT AND MANY IN THE CALIFORNIA LEGISLATURE DID TOO. AND BY THE WAY, MANY REPUBLICANS DID TOO.

HUGH>> DIFFERENT ISSUE THAN REPARATIONS ENTIRELY, THOUGH.

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> BUT THERE'S A LINK.

HUGH>> BUT I DON'T FIND -- I'LL ASK KERMAN. ARE THERE ANY PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO HAVE ENDORSED REPARATIONS EVEN IN THE --

KERMAN>> -- ANY POLITICIANS? I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY AT THIS POINT.

HUGH>> SEE, I DON'T THINK IT'S MAINSTREAM UNTIL YOU CAN BREAK OUT OF THE INTEREST GROUP. THAT'S MY POSITION. IT'S NOT MAINSTREAM. IT'S NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

KERMAN>> NO, I THINK WHAT HAPPENS, YOU FOLLOW AN ISSUE -- AS WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER, THE REAL ACTIVE RADICAL GROUPS IN THE COMMUNITY TALKED ABOUT IT. NOW YOU HEAR MIDDLE-CLASS AFRICAN-AMERICANS TALKING ABOUT IT. YOU HEAR THIS DISCUSSION GOING ON IN CHURCHES. YOU HEAR IT AROUND DINNER TABLES. IT'S A MAINSTREAM ISSUE IN THE COMMUNITY AND IT'S STARTING TO GET OUT IN THE GREATER COMMUNITY. I WANT TO ASK YOU A QUESTION THAT VAL TOUCHED ON EARLIER --

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> -- ALSO CONGRESSIONAL BLACK CAUCUS.

KERMAN>> YEAH. A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE CONFUSED AND THEY THINK EVERYBODY'S GOING TO GET A CHECK. CAN YOU TELL PEOPLE, THE ADVOCATES FOR REPARATIONS, SPECIFICALLY WHAT DO THEY WANT?

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> YOU KNOW WHAT? YOU CAN'T, KERMAN. YOU KNOW WHY? BECAUSE FOR EVERY PERSON THAT YOU ASK THAT SUPPORTS REPARATIONS, YOU'LL GET A DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW.

[SIMULTANEOUS CONVERSATION]

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> SO THERE'S NO CONSENSUS.

JESS>> YOU HAD A LIST OF ITEMS THAT YOU POINTED THAT WE NEEDED TO ADDRESS AND, INDEED, AS YOU WERE DOING SO, I WAS THINKING THAT SOME OF THOSE WE ARE TRYING TO ADDRESS. MAYBE NOT EFFECTIVELY AND MAYBE NOT ADEQUATELY --

VAL>> -- AND THEY AFFECT MORE THAN JUST BLACKS.

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> RIGHT, RIGHT. AND THEY DO, EXCEPT THERE'S A RACIAL TIE THERE WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT AFRICAN-AMERICANS. A LOT OF THE INEQUITIES THAT YOU MENTIONED BEFORE, THERE IS A RACE BASE TO IT. SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT RACIAL PROFILING WITH THE POLICE, POLICE ABUSE AND THOSE AREAS, OBVIOUSLY THERE'S BEEN A RACIAL CONNECT THERE. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT URBAN RE-SEGREGATION NOW. OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S A RECONNECT THERE IN TERMS OF RACE. IT'S NOT JUST CLASS. SO THERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT WE CAN'T TAP-DANCE AROUND WHEN IT COMES TO RACE.

VAL>> WELL, IT'S A FASCINATING ISSUE. I THINK WE'RE GOING TO BE HEARING A LOT MORE ABOUT IT, SO WE HOPE TO HAVE YOU BACK. EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

EARL OFARI HUTCHINSON>> ALWAYS A PLEASURE.

HUGH>> THANKS, EARL.

VAL>> MONDAY ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT, IT'S JUST ONE COUNCIL RACE, BUT IT COULD HAVE A MAJOR IMPACT ON THE BALANCE OF POWER AT L.A.'S CITY HALL. WE'LL PREVIEW NEXT WEEK'S IMPORTANT COUNCIL RACE IN DISTRICT FOUR.

PHILIP BRUCE>> IT'S A NEW ERA FOR L.A. POLITICS AND ALL THESE NEW FACES HOPE TO PLAY A PART, BUT WHAT DID THE VOTERS THINK ABOUT THE ISSUES AND THEIR CHOICES?

>> THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT. TRAFFIC AND CRIME, THE PARKS. I THINK THAT GRAFFITI -- WE HAVE SO MANY ISSUES.

VAL>> THAT'S MONDAY AT 7:00 P.M. ON LIFE AND TIMES TONIGHT.

JESS>> CALIFORNIA CERTAINLY HAS A LOT RIDING ON BETTER RELATIONS WITH MEXICO. THIS WEEK WE GOT A PREVIEW OF WHAT MAY LIE AHEAD WHEN PRESIDENT BUSH HOSTED A MEETING AT THE WHITE HOUSE WITH MEXICO'S PRESIDENT, VICENTE FOX.

VAL>> PRESIDENT FOX WANTS THE U.S. TO REGULARIZE THE STATUS OF MORE THAN THREE MILLION MEXICAN NATIONALS WHO ARE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES ILLEGALLY. FOX SAYS HE'S ASKING THE UNITED STATES NOT TO FORGIVE LAWBREAKERS, BUT TO RECOGNIZE THE FACT THAT ILLEGAL WORKERS HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO OUR SOCIETY WITH THEIR LABOR AND TAX DOLLARS FOR YEARS. WELL, MANY CONSERVATIVES AREN'T BUYING THE CALL TO SOFTEN AMERICA'S IMMIGRATION POLICY.

IRA MEHLMAN>> IF YOU HAD BEEN INTERVIEWING SOME SOUTHERN PLANTATION OWNER A HUNDRED AND FIFTY YEARS AGO, HE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU HE NEEDED SLAVES. BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT HAS HAPPENED OVER THE PAST DECADE, DURING THE 1990'S WHEN WE HAD THE STRONGEST ECONOMY PERHAPS IN OUR NATION'S HISTORY, THE WAGES WERE -- PEOPLE WITH LESS THAN A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA DECLINED BY SEVEN PERCENT IN THE UNITED STATES. NOW UNLESS SOMEBODY CAME ALONG AND REPEALED THE LAW OF SUPPLY AND DEMAND WHILE NOBODY WAS LOOKING, IT SEEMS OBVIOUS THAT WE DON'T HAVE A LABOR SHORTAGE. WHAT WE HAVE ARE EMPLOYERS WHO ARE SEEKING TO JUST FIND CHEAPER LABOR.

VAL>> AND JOINING OUR DISCUSSION NOW IS SERGIO MUNOZ, A COLUMNIST FOR THE LOS ANGELES TIMES. HE HAS WRITTEN AT LENGTH ABOUT WHAT SOME HAVE CALLED AN AMNESTY PLAN, BUT, SERGIO, YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT WORD?

SERGIO MUNOZ>> (LAUGHTER) WELL, THE THING IS, I BELIEVE THERE IS A LOT OF CONFUSION. WHEN FOX BEGAN TALKING ABOUT REGULARIZATION, HE MEANT REGULARIZATION MEANING HOW DO WE FIND A WAY TO HAVE AN ILLEGAL ALIEN, A MEXICAN UNDOCUMENTED WORKER, IN THE UNITED STATES GET A DRIVER'S LICENSE, GET A SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER? IN OTHER WORDS, HOW DO WE MAKE HIS LIFE A LITTLE BIT EASIER WHEN HE GOES FROM HIS HOUSE TO HIS JOB?

NOW THAT WORD REGULARIZATION, WHICH MEANT A VERY SMALL THING, BECAME A BIG WORD BECAUSE WHEN IT ENTERED INTO THE POLITICAL ARENA, THEN EVERYBODY BEGAN SAYING -- THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, THE LATINO LEADERSHIP, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH -- THEY SAY AMNESTY. IT BEGAN BEING AN AMNESTY FOR THREE MILLION MEXICANS. NOW WE'RE IN AN AMNESTY FOR NINE MILLION PEOPLE, INCLUDING UKRAINIANS AND CANADIANS AND EVERYONE ELSE. SO WHAT I BELIEVE IS THE CASE IS THERE IS AN ENORMOUS CONFUSION OF WHAT THE TERMS ARE.

HUGH>> A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE STOOD UP AND BEGUN SHOOTING AT PLANS WHICH HAVE NOT BEEN UNVEILED BECAUSE THEY HAVE POLITICAL CAUSES TO SERVE AND MAILING LISTS TO GET OUT AND CONTRIBUTIONS TO RAISE. IN FACT, NO CONCRETE PROPOSAL HAS BEEN PUT FORWARD BY EITHER PARTY.

IT BEGAN WITH AN ASHCROFT-COLIN POWELL WORKING GROUP THAT RAISED THE ISSUE ABOUT TREATING MEXICAN ILLEGALS DIFFERENT FROM THE REST OF THE ILLEGAL POPULATION BECAUSE OF THE CROSS-BORDER NATURE OF THE TRAFFIC. PEOPLE COME, THEY GO, THEY COME, THEY GO, THEY SEND MONEY HOME. AND THAT HAS STILL NOT BEEN FORMALIZED IN ANY PROPOSAL.

YESTERDAY THERE WAS A FINE CONVERSATION BETWEEN TWO HEADS OF STATES OF NEIGHBORING NATIONS THAT WENT VERY LONG TOWARD REPAIRING SOME VERY STRAINED RELATIONSHIPS. IT'S GREAT FOR LATINOS. IT'S GREAT FOR REPUBLICANS. THE CONSERVATIVES ARE OUT THERE SHOOTING THE LIBERALS. THE UNIONS ARE OUT THERE SHOOTING AT THIS. JUST NEED A TARGET TO RAISE MONEY. THAT'S ALL THAT'S BEEN HAPPENING THIS FAR.

KERMAN>> I WANT TO THROW SOMETHING OUT. WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THIS PROGRAM THAT EVERYBODY'S TALKING OUT, THIS AMNESTY, SO TO SPEAK, OR POSSIBLY GIVE THEM SOME SORT OF LEGAL STATUS, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ECONOMY RIGHT NOW, THINGS REALLY AREN'T DOING THAT WELL. THIS BUSH ECONOMY HAS GONE IN THE TANK. WE HAVE ABOUT 500,000 PEOPLE WHO USED TO WORK IN JANUARY. THEY'RE UNEMPLOYED NOW. ARE AMERICANS GOING TO EMBRACE A PROGRAM LIKE THIS THAT ALLOWS THEM TO BE GIVEN LEGAL STATUS WHEN THEY, IN FACT, MIGHT BE COMPETING FOR JOBS THAT AMERICANS ARE VYING FOR NOW THAT THEY'RE BEING LAID OFF IN RECORD NUMBERS?

SERGIO MUNOZ>> WELL, THERE AGAIN, THERE'S ANOTHER CONFUSION, IF I MAY, AND I WILL TRY TO CLARIFY IT.

KERMAN>> OKAY.

SERGIO MUNOZ>> THE INITIAL PROPOSAL, WHEN FOX AND BUSH MET IN FEBRUARY IN MEXICO, THEY SAID WHY DON'T WE WORK ON A TABLE THAT HAS FIVE LEGS. A, HOW DO WE MAKE SAFETY IN THE BORDER A BIG ISSUE? HOW DO WE DO -- HOW CAN WE GIVE MORE VISAS TO MEXICANS? THREE, WHAT DO WE DO WITH THE MEXICANS THAT ARE ALREADY THERE? FOUR, WHAT DO WE DO WITH THE PROPOSAL OF REPUBLICAN SENATOR BILL GRAHAM TO HAVE A GUEST WORKER PROGRAM? AND FIVE, DO WE INVEST IN MEXICO? THOSE WERE THE FIVE LEGS.

NOW THAT PROPOSAL, AS YOU SAY, HASN'T BEEN SET ON PAPER. SO WHEN YOU SAY ARE THEY GOING TO COME TO DO JOBS THAT COULD BE DONE BY AMERICANS, WELL, I WOULD LIKE YOU TO GO AND SEE IN THE RESTAURANTS, IN THE CARWASHES, IN SO MANY PLACES, WHERE THERE'S NOTHING BUT MEXICANS WORKING.

KERMAN>> YOU'RE RIGHT. I WOULD ARGUE THERE AREN'T MANY AMERICAN DISHWASHERS. BUT I'M SAYING, AS THE ECONOMY GETS WORSE, MY QUESTION IS, DO YOU THINK AMERICANS ARE GOING TO SAY, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T USED TO WANT TO BE A DISHWASHER, BUT SOMETHING IS BETTER THAN NOTHING. I AM GOING TO RISE UP AGAINST THIS POLITICALLY?

SERGIO MUNOZ>> SURE. WELL, THE WAY I UNDERSTAND IT, THE PROPOSAL IS GOING TO BE STRUCTURED ONCE THEY LET THEM STRUCTURE IT. WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW IS JUST A SHOOT-OUT. THE WAY IT'S GOING TO BE STRUCTURED IS THIS WAY. THE HOTEL AND RESTAURANT INDUSTRY TELLS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WE NEED THESE MANY POSITIONS --

JESS>> -- THE WAY FARMERS DID IN THEIR OVER-SELL PROGRAM.

SERGIO MUNOZ>> EXACTLY, EXACTLY. AND THEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT GOES TO MEXICO AND SAYS WE NEED SO MANY WAITERS, THIS AND THAT AND THAT, THEN THOSE GUYS COME IN. NOW THE PROBLEM IS THAT, WHAT WAS TO BE A YEARLY PROBLEM, THERE'S ABOUT, I DON'T KNOW, ABOUT 150 AND 250 MEXICANS THAT COME EVERY YEAR.

VAL>> AS LEGAL GUEST WORKERS?

SERGIO MUNOZ>> ILLEGALS.

VAL>> ILLEGAL, OKAY.

SERGIO MUNOZ>> ILLEGALLY, OKAY? APART FROM THE ABOUT 25,000 THAT COME LEGALLY, OKAY? SO HOW DO YOU REGULATE THAT? HOW DO YOU MAKE THAT LEGAL SO THAT WAGES CAN GO UP, SO THAT YOU CAN REALLY CONTROL WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE LABOR MARKET?

JESS>> IT'S A VERY COMPLEX, VERY DIFFICULT ISSUE AND IT WAS MADE MUCH MORE DIFFICULT IN RECENT DAYS WHEN VICENTE FOX SAID HE'D LIKE TO HAVE THIS DONE BY THE END OF THE YEAR.

VAL>> OH, YES, YES.

SERGIO MUNOZ>> HE'S A VERY IMPETUOUS LEADER.

HUGH>> HE'S A LEADER, HE'S A LEADER. HE PUTS IT OUT THERE AND WE SEE WHAT HAPPENS. I'LL TELL YOU WHAT'S THE BIGGER STORY. ACTUALLY THE MUCH BIGGER STORY IS FOR LATINOS IN CALIFORNIA WHO ARE ALREADY CITIZENS AND WHO VOTE. THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY PUT OUT THEIR MAPS THIS WEEK FOR THE NEW CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS AND THEY SCREWED THE LATINO VOTERS TO THE WALL. THEY SPLIT THEM INTO DIFFERENT DISTRICTS. THEY DRAINED AWAY A CHALLENGE FROM HOWARD BERMAN, WHOSE BROTHER DREW THE MAPS. THEY KEPT HENRY WAXMAN SAFE. THEY CREATED --

VAL>> -- THESE ARE LOCAL? FROM CALIFORNIA DISTRICTS?

HUGH>> -- THESE ARE LOCAL CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS, SO THIS EMERGING LATINO ELECTORATE GOT SCREWED TO THE WALL AND THE VICENTE FOX-BUSH THING HAS OBSCURED THAT.

VAL>> WHERE ARE THE LATINO LEADERS?

HUGH>> THEY ARE SCREAMING. THEY'RE SCREAMING IN SACRAMENTO THIS WEEK.

VAL>> THEY ARE?

KERMAN>> NO, THE LATINO CAUCUS SUPPORTS --

JESS>> -- IT'S A FINE OLD TRADITION, THOUGH, ISN'T IT, OF PROTECTING INCUMBENTS --

[SIMULTANEOUS CONVERSATION]

HUGH>> THEY DO NOT SUPPORT THIS.

KERMAN>> YES, THEY DO.

HUGH>> THEY DO NOT SUPPORT THIS, THEY DO NOT SUPPORT THIS.

KERMAN>> FIRST OF ALL, WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO DO? YOU HAVE TO PROTECT THE INCUMBENT. THERE'S NO WAY DEMOCRATS IN SACRAMENTO CAN THROW AWAY A CITY MEMBER WHO'S VOTING FOR THEM ON ISSUES FOR A LATINO OR AN ASIAN OR AN AFRICAN-AMERICAN WHO MIGHT BE ELECTED. THIS IS CLASSIC DEMOCRAT PROTECTION PLAN. REPUBLICANS DO THE SAME THING. WHEN YOU'RE POSITIONS OF AUTHORITY, YOU ALWAYS PROTECT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THERE. IT'S A BASIC INCUMBENT PROTECTION PLAN. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH STOPPING LATINOS FROM EMERGING.

JESS>> ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, GENTLEMEN. (LAUGHTER)

TIME NOW TO HEAR WHAT OUR VIEWERS HAVE TO SAY. ON TUESDAY, WE DISCUSSED THE PROPOSED BAILOUT OF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA EDISON AND WHETHER TAXPAYERS WILL GET STUCK WITH THE BILL. RON PRIDA OF LAKEWOOD WRITES:

"DID OR DID NOT THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA PUT EDISON AND PG&E IN THE FINANCIAL PROBLEM THEY'RE IN WITH THE DEREGULATION BILL? MAYBE THE IDIOTS THAT STARTED THIS THING SHOULD DIG IN THEIR OWN POCKETS AND DO SOMETHING."

VAL>> AND LAST FRIDAY, WE TALKED WITH L.A. COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY, STEVE COOLEY. BERNADINE BEDNARZ WROTE TO SAY SHE LIKED WHAT SHE SAW AND HEARD. HER E-MAIL SAYS:

"IMAGINE A D.A. THAT BELIEVES THAT HE IS FOR THE OFFICE AND NOT THE OFFICE FOR HIS OWN SELF-AGGRANDIZEMENT. SOLDIER ON, STEVE."

JESS>> BUT JONATHON MANDEL OF ENCINO DID NOT LIKE IT WHEN, ON THAT SAME BROADCAST, HUGH HEWITT ASKED COOLEY ABOUT THE MURDER OF ACTOR ROBERT BLAKE'S WIFE:

"MR. HEWITT SOUNDED MORE LIKE A REPORTER FOR THE NATIONAL ENQUIRER PURSUING HOLLYWOOD ANGLES RATHER THAN A PUBLIC TELEVISION ANALYST. I COULDN'T FIGURE OUT WHY HE WAS SO AGGRESSIVE ABOUT GRILLING THE D.A. ABOUT SUCH INSIGNIFICANT SPECULATIVE STORIES."

VAL>> WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT, HUGH?

HUGH>> HEY, PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW THE ANSWERS. THAT INVESTIGATION BOTCHED. THAT'S ALL THEY WANT TO KNOW. (LAUGHTER)

VAL>> (LAUGHTER) WELL, LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK. YOU CAN REACH US THROUGH OUR WEBSITE AT KCET.ORG OR E-MAIL US DIRECTLY. OUR ADDRESS IS LIFEANDTIMES -- ALL ONE WORD -- LIFEANDTIMES@KCET.ORG.

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JESS>> SONAR IS A VITAL TOOL IN OUR NATIONAL DEFENSE, BUT ONE TYPE OF SONAR THE NAVY USES TO MONITOR THE SEAS MAY HAVE AN UNFORTUNATE SIDE EFFECT. CRITICS INSIST IT'S KILLING AND INJURING WHALES.

VAL>> TONIGHT WE'LL TALK WITH SOME OF THOSE CRITICS, BUT FIRST PHILIP BRUCE LOOKS AT THE SONAR AND SOME OF ITS ALLEGED VICTIMS.

PHILIP>> FOR MANY, THE OCEAN IS THE ULTIMATE TRANQUILITY. ASK A SCUBA DIVER ABOUT THE ATTRACTION TO THE DEPTHS UNDER WATER AND HE'LL LIKELY TELL YOU IT'S THE VARIETY OF LIFE, THE PEACE, THE STILLNESS, THE QUIET.

BUT MORE AND MORE, THE OCEANS ARE BEING POLLUTED BY NOISE AND ONE CONTROVERSIAL SOURCE OF UNDERWATER NOISE IS THE NAVY'S USE OF ACTIVE SONAR. ON MARCH 15 OF LAST YEAR, WHALES BEGAN STRANDING IN THE BAHAMAS. A LOCAL TEAM OF SCIENTISTS FOUND THAT THE WHALES HAD DIED FROM HEMORRHAGING AROUND THE BRAIN AND EAR BONES.

THIS MASS BEACHING OF WHALES COINCIDED WITH A NAVY BATTLE GROUP'S USE OF ACTIVE SONAR. AN INVESTIGATION BY THE NATIONAL MARINE FISHERIES SERVICE AND THE NAVY CONCLUDED IT'S HIGHLY LIKELY THE STRANDINGS WERE A RESULT OF THE SONAR. ENVIRONMENTALISTS HAVE SEIZED UPON THE OPPORTUNITY TO QUESTION THE SAFETY OF DEPLOYING SUCH INTENSE SOUNDS UNDER WATER. OF PARTICULAR CONCERN IS LOW-FREQUENCY ACTIVE SONAR, OR LFA. THOUGH THE SONAR THAT WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BAHAMAS STRANDINGS IS MID-FREQUENCY SONAR, LOW-FREQUENCY SONAR TRAVELS MUCH FURTHER, HAVING THE ABILITY TO COVER EIGHTY PERCENT OF THE WORLD'S OCEANS.

ACTIVE SONAR HAS BEEN USED SINCE WORLD WAR II. THE SONAR IS USED TO DETECT ENEMY SUBMARINES BY LIGHTING UP THE OCEAN WITH SOUND. LFA IS THE LARGEST ACTIVE SONAR SYSTEM EVER DEVISED. AT ITS SOURCE, THE SONAR GENERATES SOUND UP TO 215 DECIBELS, ABOUT AS LOUD AS STANDING NEAR THE LAUNCH OF A SPACE SHUTTLE.

WHILE THE NAVY ADMITS THAT THE INTENSE SOUND MAY BE DANGEROUS, THEY INSIST IT CAN BE OPERATED SAFELY AND THEY ARE SEEKING EXEMPTION FROM THE MARINE MAMMALS PROTECTION ACT. BUT ENVIRONMENTALISTS SAY THERE'S ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO SHOW THAT THE SONAR IS DANGEROUS TO MARINE LIFE AND THEY'RE REQUESTING THAT THE NATIONAL MARINE FISHERIES SERVICES DENY THE NAVY ITS PERMITS FOR DEPLOYMENT OF LFA SONAR.

JESS>> HERE TO TALK ABOUT THE SONAR PROBLEM IS KATY PENLAND. SHE'S PRESIDENT OF THE AMERICAN CETACEAN SOCIETY. AND MICHAEL JASNY FROM THE NATURAL RESOURCES DEFENSE COUNCIL. I'D LIKE TO POINT OUT THE NAVY DECLINED OUR OFFER TO BE PRESENT TONIGHT.

ARE WE CONVINCED ABSOLUTELY THAT THE NAVY SONAR IS DAMAGING THE WHALES?

MICHAEL JASNY>> YES, WE ARE CONVINCED ABSOLUTELY. YOU KNOW, I THINK ALL ALONG IT'S BEEN A QUESTION OF HOW TO DEAL WITH SCIENTIFIC UNCERTAINTY. BACK IN 1996, THERE WAS A MASS STRANDING OF BEAKED WHALES OFF THE WEST COAST OF GREECE. THE NAVY CAME TO THE CONCLUSION, WITH NATO, THAT IN THAT CASE IT SEEMED THAT IT WAS IN CLOSE CORRELATION, A CLOSE TIMING, BETWEEN THE MOVEMENTS OF A SONAR VESSEL OPERATING THE LOW FREQUENCIES AND THE MID FREQUENCIES AND THE MASS STRANDING.

BUT NONETHELESS, THEY WOULDN'T INCORPORATE THIS PIECE OF INFORMATION TO THE ENVIRONMENTAL REVIEW THAT THEY WANTED TO DO OF THE LFA SYSTEM. THEN IN MARCH 2000, MUCH BETTER EVIDENCE EMERGED. A MULTIPLE SPECIES OF WHALES BEGAN TO STRAND ON THE COASTS OF THE NORTHERN BAHAMAS ISLANDS.

VAL>> BUT THE NAVY -- SINCE THEY'RE NOT HERE, I'M GOING TO SAY THEIR POINTS FOR THEM -- THEY SAY THAT THE DAMAGE THAT WAS CAUSED TO THOSE WHALES WAS FROM A DIFFERENT KIND OF SONAR THAN THE ONE THAT THEY ARE PROPOSING. THEY'RE PROPOSING A LOW-FREQUENCY AND THE ONE THAT DAMAGED THE WHALES WAS A DIFFERENT SONAR. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT APPLES AND ORANGES.

MICHAEL JASNY>> THE PROBLEM IS, WE DON'T KNOW THE MECHANISM THAT'S ACTUALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE STRANDINGS.

KATY PENLAND>> IT'S CLASSIFIED.

MICHAEL JASNEY>> YEAH, I MEAN --

JESS>> -- AND UNDERSTANDABLY CLASSIFIED.

MICHAEL JASNY>> WELL, IT COULD BE DISORIENTATION. IT COULD BE INTERNAL HEMORRHAGING, WHICH IN FACT WAS FOUND IN THE BODIES OF THE BEACHED WHALES THAT WERE NECROPSIED AFTER THE EVENT. WE SIMPLY DON'T KNOW THE MECHANISM THAT CAUSED THE STRANDINGS, SO IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY EXACTLY, YOU KNOW, WHAT SONAR SYSTEMS ARE SAFE FOR WHAT SPECIES.

VAL>> BUT DIDN'T THE NAVY HAVE SOME TOP SCIENTISTS LOOK AT THE EFFECT OF THE LOW-FREQUENCY SONAR ON A VARIETY OF MAMMALS AND THEY SAID THAT THERE WAS NO NEGLIGIBLE -- THESE WERE OBJECTIVE SCIENTISTS THAT THEY EMPLOYED AND THEY SAID THERE WAS NO NEGLIGIBLE DAMAGE?

KATY PENLAND>> NOT NECESSARILY. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH PROGRAM WHICH WAS CONDUCTED OVER THREE PHASES A LITTLE OVER A YEAR'S TIME. ALTHOUGH THEY DID COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE EFFECTS WERE BIOLOGICALLY INSIGNIFICANT. I WAS ACTUALLY HIRED AS AN OBSERVER ON PHASE ONE OF THESE.

IN MY OPINION, ALTHOUGH I'M NOT A PHD, I WOULD SAY THAT THE RESULTS WERE BIOLOGICALLY INCONCLUSIVE DUE TO SAMPLE SIZE WHICH WERE VERY LOW. AT ONE OF THE PHASES, THE TESTS WERE CONDUCTED AT A TIME OF YEAR WHERE THERE WERE VERY FEW WHALES. THEY DIDN'T WANT TO MOVE THE STUDY AREA OUT OF NAVY-CONTROLLED AIR AND WATER SPACE. THIS WAS JUST IN ONE PHASE AND THERE WERE PROBLEMS IN TWO OF THE OTHER PHASES AS WELL.

MICHAEL JASNY>> BUT DESPITE THESE LIMITATIONS, THE FACT IS THAT THERE WERE INDICATIONS OF DISRUPTIONS IN BIOLOGICALLY SIGNIFICANT BEHAVIOR IN PHASE THREE. ABOUT A QUARTER OF THE MALE HUMPBACK WHALES WITHIN THE STUDY CEASED VOCALIZING. NOW VOCALIZING IS KNOWN TO BE AN ESSENTIAL ELEMENT OF THE MATING BEHAVIOR IN THE SPECIES.

JESS>> WELL, THAT'S ALSO THE WAY THAT THE PINGING OF THE SONAR DOES INTERFERE WITH THE WHALE'S ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE? IS THAT --

KATY PENLAND>> -- WELL, YES, ACOUSTICS TO WHALES ARE OF EQUIVALENT IMPORTANCE AS EYESIGHT FOR HUMANS. THAT'S HOW THEY FUNCTION IN A VERY LOW-VISIBILITY ENVIRONMENT SUCH AS THE OCEAN. SO IF YOU START INTERFERING WITH THEIR ABILITY TO EITHER HEAR PREY, HEAR PREDATORS, HEAR SHIPS -- IN FACT, JUST IN CALIFORNIA HERE, WE'RE RECENTLY FINDING THERE'S A REALLY HIGH INCREASE IN SHIP STRIKES ON WHALES WHICH IS UNACCOUNTED FOR AT THIS POINT. YOU ARE INTERFERING WITH THE CALVES TO FIND THEIR MOTHERS AND SO FORTH. YEAH, IT'S A SERIOUS PROBLEM.

MICHAEL JANSY>> AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO PUT IT IN THE CONTEXT OF A LARGER EMERGING PROBLEM. IT'S NOT JUST LFA. LFA MAY BE THE NOSE UNDER THE TENT, BUT THERE'S A RANGE OF ADDITIONAL SYSTEMS THAT THE NAVY IS DEVELOPING.

JESS>> WE'LL DEAL WITH THEM SOMETIME LATER, I SUSPECT. KATY PENLAND AND MICHAEL JASNY, THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US TODAY.

VAL>> THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT. THANKS SO MUCH FOR WATCHING. HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND.

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